Topic: Bohemian or Turkish Glass, enamelling Bohemian,or is it Turkish or 19thC Persian

[flying free]

I'm starting a thread for this because it's something I've been wondering for a good few years now.
I don't own a piece yet though.
I see these tall stoppered bottles, in cut coloured glass, fairly often and they are always listed as Bohemian.

Often they are enamelled and this pair that sold through Christie's have a particular type of enamelling that I see on other glass pieces.  Those pieces are opaque opaline, in shapes (ewers and tall thin neck bulbous bottom footed vases) and glass (opaque opaline in an odd blue and an odd green - neither colour I associate with Bohemian glass but could be wrong) that I believe could be from Beykoz glass (Turkish).  With a peculiarly bright type of enamel greeny yellow on them in various forms on many of them and usually some flat white in some form of flower heads.

So, are/were these pieces shipped into Iran/Persia and enamelled there? 
Or were they all enamelled in Turkey but  some pieces made in Turkish glass factories , others bought in from Bohemia and enamelled in the same way, all to be sent to the Persian market?
Or are these stoppered bottles in fact Turkish rather than Bohemian and enamelled in Turkey. 
I think the opaque opaline ewers and footed tall vases with bulbous bottoms and narrow tall necks are Turkish, and most I've seen are attributed to Beykoz.

These are the type of stoppered bottle I'm talking about (Christies, sale 6853, 2 Dec 2012, Lot 57)
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-large-enamelled-gut-glass-decanters-bohemian-5602655-details.aspx

I'll find some examples of the opaline with the same enamelling and add those in a sec but this pair are a good example of the enamelling being found on the shapes I refer to, although this pair are clear glass.  But the shape of the vessel is the same as the opaline ones I'm talking about, bulbous bottom and tall narrow neck with a foot (you should be able to click on the picture and have it enlarge to see the enamelling)
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pr-antique-bohemian-ottoman-beykoz-137645269

here are some other pieces with similar enamelling sold as Beykoz
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pr-antique-bohemian-ottoman-beykoz-137468651
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ottoman-turkish-beykoz-opaline-glass-142325847
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ottoman-turkish-beykoz-french-ewer-247568120
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pr-antique-bohemian-ottoman-beykoz-137468651

This is a better example of the colour of the enamels but I'm not sure how old this piece is.  The blue of the opaline is a bit brighter than the kind of duck egg blue I'm thinking of although I've also seen this bright odd blue as well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-OTTOMAN-TURKISH-BEYKOZ-FRENCH-EWER-OPALINE-GLASS-ENAMEL-OVERLAY-BOTTLE-/251351019390?nma=true&si=l2MBzUYPY0OGjxE48GmpcUBq724%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

m

[flying free]

see above
and this set is a perfect example of what I mean - these have the bright coloured enamels but are all said to be Bohemian

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-bohemian-opaline-glass-decanter-and-stopper-5534569-details.aspx

and these also said to be Bohemian
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/three-bohemian-glass-decanters-and-stoppers-late-5597611-details.aspx

And rather confusingly this  high end collection is listed as 'Turkish Bohemian' (see picture second from bottom)
http://www.ghassanshaker.com/cultural/

The tall thin necked shape vessel with a bulbous bottom and footed base is a hookah base as per this sale
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-pair-of-bohemian-glass-hookah-bases-5406567-details.aspx

[flying free]

Well this doesn't answer my question about where they were enamelled but I guess given the price of this one (>£18000  )
the Christie's info must be correct - Bohemian glass
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-bohemian-emerald-green-cut-and-enamelled-mid-19th-5406568-details.aspx?pos=9&intObjectID=5406568&sid=&page=21

This pair went for £20,000!
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-bohemian-lime-green-enamelled-glass-mid-19th-century-5406565-details.aspx?pos=7&intObjectID=5406565&sid=&page=21

m

[Ivo]

Hmmmm a lot if mystification there. The largest supplier of luxury glassware to the ottoman empire was vsl and the collection in istanbul reflects this. I guess a lot of it is assumption. Beykoz glass ws the local produce and it is rare - at least the antique tuff.

[flying free]

Interesting Ivo, thanks.
I've been looking at these types of pieces for a long time and still can't tell which might be old or not 
I do recognise some of the gilded on clear old pieces but these enamelled ones I have no clue.

What do you think of this one?  I thought this might have some age to it, however I know I sold a hookah base  a long time ago, not knowing what it was, and the enamelling on it was quite distressed although I didn't believe it was that old.  So this might just be 'roughly' made.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Ottoman-Turkish-Beykoz-Blue-Glass-Ewer-19th-Century-Painted-/200939355982?nma=true&si=l2MBzUYPY0OGjxE48GmpcUBq724%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

m

[Ivo]

Here are two pieces which may shed some light on the matter.

The first one is from Bohemia circa 1920 - so much later than you'd think. It was made for the Persian market and has an enameled portrait of Ahmed Shah Quajar.  The piece is cobalt blue decorated with thick enamel and gilding, the pontil is unfinished.

The second piece is a rose water sprinkler made in Beykoz in 2007 - in the Beykoz revival style. The enamel is much thinner, the decoration not so OTT and garish as the Bohemian piece.

[flying free]

  fab, thanks!
m

[flying free]

Ivo, just to say thank you as I've now found a fantastic link you put on here a few years ago
m