Topic: Thomas Webb — heat sensitive? — akin to Alexandrite?

[Paul S.]

I'd typed more before realizing that Christine had posted again............  I hope my notes haven't crossed with hers  -  apologies if they have  -  but will leave my words as written..............

quote from m........."obviously again subjective based on my opinion as a layman ):" ............ shouldn't you be a laywoman

since I don't possess any Alexandrite - or come to that Amberina or Rose Amber - I'm not best placed to comment, but.............

just to repeat that the pix in the Christie's catalogues are high quality - albeit way too small though to detect any chocolate in the rim area, but what is significant in all of them, plus CH's piece, and Christines, is the noticeably amount of blueish violet.        With Alexandrite, it seems that desirability is all about aesthetics, and without this violet/blue shading, appeal seems to drop off.
I wouldn't dare contradict Nigel's expertise or knowledge on these pieces - he's seen many and held them, so I'm sure his description is accurate, but chocolate is a colour that you wouldn't perhaps expect to see....blues and violets etc., yes, but obviously chocolate is there on some pieces.

It's well documented that heating glass containing gold (in colloidal form) produces a ruby colour (Newman says it was 22-carat), and this was produced for several centuries I believe - but at some point the gold was replaced with chemicals.
Just discovered there was something called Rose-Teinte.......... produced by Baccarat in the first half of the C20, and called 'Baccarat's Amberina'......... colour achieved by similar process of re-heating, but using less gold, apparently, than true Amberina, and the final shade varied from pale amber to a delicate rose.

In view of the mountains of manufactured glass containing uranium, it doesn't seem that heating metal with this constituent produces any change to the overall colour.

Could well be that the States Amberina may have been a different recipe - otherwise I'd agree that someone somewhere would have made the discovery of Alexandrite on that side of the pond.
I've read the chapter on Amberina/Rose Amber in the book on Mt. Washinton Glass, and regret to say that nowhere did I see anything detailing the recipe for these particular products, unfortunately.

I hope that it wasn't thought I was being unduly arrogant re the matter of the colour of Mervyn Gulliver's punch cup.
I think what I was trying to say, but probably failed to do, was that bearing in mind how we most accurately see (and describe) a piece of Alexandrite i.e. showing the typical fuchsia/violet blue as seen in CH and the Parkington pieces, then the MG piece appears to fail this test of appearance.
I appreciate that there is variation in Alexandrite (and Amberina), but would still maintain that if we all went out and bought pieces that agreed with Mr. G's piece, then most of us would come home with Amberina only.
I believe that Bernard made a comment recently that this author is attending the National this coming weekend  -  perhaps someone might 'ask the author' about this item.

I bet Bernard wishes he'd never started this one  

[Lustrousstone]

I believe that Bernard made a comment recently that this author is attending the National this coming weekend  -  perhaps someone might 'ask the author' about this item.

That was last weekend  . I don't remember any Alexandrite this time

[Paul S.]

ooopps  -  sorry for getting the wrong weekend.

[flying free]

oh ok,but over the page they provide a recipe for 'Tricolour' as well.
Interestingly  'Tricolore' was launched in 1886. 
If Alexandrite is indeed 'Tricolore' then 1886 would be an earlier date than I've seen it mentioned.  Interestingly the honeycomb mold which mine is, was introduced in 1886 as well.
m

[flying free]

oops, my reply above was to Christine regarding the Tricolour/Tricolore .

Paul, no not at all ! -  your comments about the punch cup raised doubts for me. 
Even though I feel it is  just a poor colour representation in the pic, I had a good look around last night.
There are a few punch cups (amberina , sold in the States) that come up when I searched.  None look anything like Alexandrite even allowing for poor photography.  But I also noted that the handle on all of them was very differently placed and done to the one in the book.  Likewise I noted that the mold used for them was not as neat, precise, tight ... whatever, difficult to put it across, but just not the same as the one in the book. 
I also noticed that the jug I referred to in the Chrysler collection is very similar to an amberina shape jug I've seen.  But again the amberina jug is not as neatly done in shape, the mold is not as tight/neat in pattern, the handle is slightly different, etc. 

However, I'll admit to thinking 'that one in Gulliver's  needs checking out now' once I got to the end.  So a small query that probably needs justifying by a pattern number or mold match or something, in my mind now.

Thanks for going through the Christie's catalogues
m

[flying free]

Adding to my post above

Just for the record and so people don't have to click through to the link I gave earlier -

Nigel says:
'There were 10 pieces in the two Michael Parkington sales back in 1997/98 - I handled all of them (Pt I - lots 281, 2 & 3; Pt II - lots 302, 03 & 04) I have owned three pieces, and have been lucky enough to handle others.

The correct colouring is: rising from citrine, going into rose pink, then into blue and, finally a chocolate brown rim. Most pieces are thin, which would probably make them unsuitable for such use. This would also suggest that the colouring on the night light is "up-side-down", since the rose pink is within the body and the citrine toward the rim. There appears to be no blue and it is doubtful that there is a chocolate brown rim from what can be seen in the photo.

True Thomas Webb Alexandrite commands substantual prices, so I don't think it is advisable to assume it to be that rare commodity. If the colouring for all four constituants is poor, or the chocolate brown is missing, then the value is commensurately (even substantually) less. '


I don't know whether the chocolate is there deliberately or not, or in fact whether it is a natural by-product of the second re-heating at the rim, but it seems the fact that the chocolate is there (along with the other criteria as well of course) means it is definitely without doubt a piece of Webb's Alexandrite which affects the value. 

Christine has said her glasses have this when you look into the rim edge, my piece has this although it is a very fine faint line all around the rim, and from the pieces I can see online clearly enough, they have it too

Nigel has handled at least thirteen pieces and more according to his post.

Christine, thanks, I understand about the mold changing.  I was just surmising that the metal and production full stop for Alexandrite might have also been so expensive , adding to quality control etc that it wasn't a repeated exercise.

m

[chopin-liszt]

 
So it would seem that Nigel said the chocolate should be there!
Weird.
It looks better without, but I wouldn't pay the market prices, whether the chocolate was there or not.

[Lustrousstone]

How does Nigel know this is the correct colouring; all the literature mentioned so far cites three colours. Why are all the glasses apparently only tricolour?

[flying free]

'... It looks better without, but I wouldn't pay the market prices, whether the chocolate was there or not.'
 
IMHO it's worth it.  Every penny.  An exquisite type of glass that broke new ground well over hundred years ago.  Very special.
The only other thing I have owned that matched it for desirability for me (in terms of the constituent make-up of the glass rather than a piece that had been cased/hot or cold worked etc) was my lithyalin hyalith glass.  It was truly wretched to part with it even though it was for a good cause.

Christine, I've no idea.  Perhaps because all the thirteen plus pieces he's handled were like that?
 
m

[Paul S.]

I think that a certain lady should be charitable with her wine glass collection and give one to Sue, one to m and one to me .........then we might arrive at a better consensus of opinion re the colour