Topic: Thomas Gammon tumbler, or Percival Vickers?

[Anne E.B.]

I recognised this tumbler which I found yesterday , from my recently bought copy of Hajdamach's "British Glass 1800-1914" where it is shown with a matching pickle jar "press-moulded by Thomas Gammon, Birmingham 1849" p.335, plate 302.  Its quite a heavy substantial piece, but really pleasing to hold.  As far as I can see, it is unmarked.   It stands approx. 4" high with a 3¼" diam. top and weighs 399g.

I've added a picture of it with my Thomas Gammon rummer which has featured previously  http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,8995.0.html where this tumbler is also mentioned.

[Paul S.]

thanks for sharing Anne - attractive pieces - thanks also for attaching the link where Gammon's design had been discussed previously - before my time on the GMB I think, and Bernard's input very interesting.   
     
I have a 3.25" version of this tumbler, unmarked, and in uranium as shown in the attached pix, although regret I'm puzzled by Charles Hajdamach's comments in his book 'British Glass 1800 - 1914', where he says (page 335 - plate 302) that......."Plate 302.  Left and centre.  Tumbler and matching pickle jar, press moulded by Thomas Gammon, Birmingham, 1849".        Looking at the tumbler and pickle referred to by this author - plus my own examples of both - it's my opinion that these two designs do not match remotely, so I'm confused as to the origin of CH's attribution of Thomas Gammon for this design.       

In an effort to resolve this I've looked at what I believe are all of Gammon's Registrations (around this period) in Slack and cross checked with my pix from Kew, and although I appear to have copies all of Gammon's designs for three years starting with 59584 (18.04.1849) through to 82737 (10.01.1852), I can't see a Board of Trade application/Registration for the design of the tumbler shown in Hajdamach (and owned by Anne and myself).
The answer may well be quite simple, and it could well be that the tumbler was a separate design that was never Registered  - perhaps someone is able to help me with this matter.
My copy of this mystery tumbler is unmarked, the base of which is distinctive, and should make identification very easy.

Looking at those early Registrations from Thomas Gammon, there appears to be only one design which was submitted in the shape of a tumbler, and that is Rd. 62918 of 12th October 1849 (the horizontal diamonds) - i.e. the one which pipped Richardson to the post, and about which Bernard has already written so interestingly.
           

Also hope you don't mind me sharing a pic of my variation on Gammon's rummer - the same design as tumbler Rd. 62918 (the horizontal diamond pattern again), although mine is not quite as shapely as yours.        On my example there are three mould seams and it has a ground/polished pontil depression - it stands 5.3/8" (c. 135 mm) tall, and is again unmarked.
           
On his original drawing, for the tumbler (Rd. 62918) - which Gammon submitted to the Board of Trade, he wrote....."ornamental design for tumbler and articles in glass, which does appear to confirm the comments that this design was applied to more than one article, and I can add a copy of the Kew image (for 62918) showing the original drawing, if anyone considers this is worth adding the the thread.
I'm sure I have the jelly somewhere, so will post a pic if I can find it, but I've yet to find the pickle.
As always with such items, the actual date of pressing remains speculative  -  I've no idea for how long Thomas Gammon used their moulds.   

[Paul S.]

In view of the closely related information in both this thread and Anne's link, the Mods might consider combining the two, thus bringing together all of this important information on Thomas Gammon.     Just a thought

coming back to Anne's link, Bernard commented to the effect that Richardson's tumbler  would have been the first pressed glass design registration by a British glassworks known to us today, had Richardson's not been beaten to it by just one day, by Thomas Gammon of Birmingham, who registered your design on October 12, 1849.
Looking at the list of Design Registrations in Slack, there seem to be many Registrations by Richardson in the two years prior to 1849, thus suggesting that this honour of priority would have been reversed.
Of course it may well be that none of these earlier Richardson designs is for a pressed article, thereby not affecting the situation  -  perhaps someone might care to comment on Richardson designs from 1847 and 1848.

I notice that there are two additional Thomas Gammon designs, Registered in April and May of 1849 - one is for an ornamental design for dishes (59584) and another for a pickle (60072) - I suspect these are pressed designs, but am not sure.

In view of the importance of the Thomas Gammon Rd. 62918, thought I'd attach copy of the National Archive image, showing the drawing as submitted originally by Gammon, and showing the horizontal diamond pattern which matches the pickle shown in CH and the rummers belonging to Anne and myself, but not the tumbler CH attributes to Thomas Gammon.          My opinion at the moment is that the tumbler design - shown in CH and which he attributes to Gammon  - examples of which are also owned by Anne and myself - are not obviously attributable to Thomas Gammon Rd. design 62918.    That's not to say that it's impossible, but presently not so.   

Just like to thank Anne E.B. again for both her posts on the subject of Thomas Gammon  -  it's all too easy with subsequent posts to forget the op's valuable contribution without which we wouldn't have added much important information to the GMB archives.
 

[agincourt17]

There has been another substantial discussion on GMB about Thomas Gammon’s design registrations (including photographs of a pressed glass pickle dish from his RD 59584 of 18 April 1849, his earliest design registration)   
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51464.msg291838.html#msg291838

I would appreciate it, Paul, if you have the design representation for RD 59584 to hand, that you could show it on that particular thread for completeness, please.

Fred.

[Paul S.]

apologies for not referencing your valuable contribution Fred - I'd forgotten that.         Perhaps all of the Thomas Gammon posts should be amalgamated - and you're quite correct in saying that 59584 is the earliest of his Registrations - I'd assumed this was a pressed item - is that correct do you think?

I do have pictures of all of these early Registrations for Gammon, and as requested now attaching couple of pix of 59584 dated 18th April 1849  -  trust you can read the details. 

Assume you can't help re the matter of Anne's tumbler?   

[agincourt17]

Thank you for showing the design represention for RD 59584, Paul.

The pickle dish is definitely pressed glass, and the particular example shown in the photos now resides in Broadfield House Glass Museum.

As to the ‘Gammon’ tumbler shown by you, Anne E.B. and CH, my opinion mirrors yours:

My opinion at the moment is that the tumbler design - shown in CH and which he attributes to Gammon - examples of which are also owned by Anne and myself - are not obviously attributable to Thomas Gammon Rd. design 62918.    That's not to say that it's impossible, but presently not so.   

Fred.

[David E]

Nice glass Anne! I have a Thomas Gammon rummer (like Paul's, did I buy it from you?) with the registration mark poorly impressed towards the base. But on the subject of this maker I have a record of:

Gammon Wm. and Son, Great Brook st. [Birmingham]

Under Glass Flint manufacturers, in 1835. I suppose it is reasonable to assume that Thomas is the son of William? The timeline appears to fit.

[Anne E.B.]

Thanks for your replies folks. Very informative.
David - I still have my rummer and it sits quite happily with some of my 20thC pieces   It looks like Thomas was the son of William as per Fred's "random jottings"   http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51464.msg292055.html#msg292055
My rummer looks to be the same pattern as the pickle jar shown in plate 302, and is very different from my tumbler and the same tumbler attributed to Gammon and shown in plate 302.  The only thing that I can see which match is the scalloped base.

 

[Paul S.]

David - no, you didn't buy it from me.......there are some things I never sell

regret I still can't see any connection - from a design point of view  - between these tumblers and the rummers/pickle.          Perhaps in the course of time we might discover the answer

[Paul S.]

Pleased to say that it appears we now have the answer.

Browsing one of Barrie Skelcher's books, he has included two identically patterned pressed tumblers which appear to match the mystery pattern in CH which the author had attributed to Thomas Gammon - but which does not correspond to the horizontal diamond design of the pickle, or rummers.
This is the tumbler with the heavily lobed base, and is the left hand example shown in CH on page 335.

As you'd expect, both tumblers in Barry Skelcher's volume are uranium - a green example of 8 cms., identical to my green tumbler, and a yellowish-looking slightly taller piece of 10 cms.

Barry Skelcher says this design appears in a Percival Vickers catalogue dated 1881, but with regard to the yellowish tumbler in particular, he adds............."Despite the appearance in the 1881 catalogue the quality of the molding says it must be much earlier.    I put it about 1860"............ the italics are the authors.
It's interesting and well worth reading the author's comments on this Manchester factory's rise and demise, although it seems that access to their design catalogues is not easy - it appears these are now owned privately, and I don't know whether they reside in the U.K. or not.
Just to say that their first catalogue was probably dated about 1846, and it appears that cut material predominated in the early years, although by 1881 their moulded products were extensive, and certainly included tumblers.

Might the Mods. consider changing the subject heading?

Ref. 'THE BIG BOOK OF VASELINE GLASS' (Schiffer)  -  Barrie Skelcher  -  2002.