Topic: Irish glass - Wheel cut pedestal fruit bowl needs ID

[courtney]

Hello,

I recently found this mammoth piece of glass in Melbourne, Australia. From what i gather it is Irish circa 1815-20. I found an identical* example here:

http://www.adams.ie/46525/A-LARGE-19TH-CENTURY-IRISH-CUT-GLASS-CIRCULAR-BOWL-with-turnover-rim-raised-on-a-large-circular-base-29cm-diameter-24cm-high-46525

I am hoping someone could identify the maker or give me any further information. It is not my style (i usually am attracted to mid-modern designs) but its quality and sheer size caught my eye. It is quite an incredible feat of glass making. Thank you! 

*Actually, i realise there is some difference in the number of prism cuts. I have attached some photos of my example as well for comparison.

[Paul S.]

hello courtney - welcome to the GMB

I notice that the auction house description of their example says simply ..'19th Century' ..   they haven't dated this to the late Georgian period - so take it that you have either made that assumption or have sought advice elsewhere?
Bowls with turn-over rims were indeed a classic feature on pieces made in Ireland around the end of the C18 - give or take a decade or so, but looking at examples from that period I'm not able to find a good match with the cutting style of both yours and the auction example.

If you have a look at typical pieces from that region - and period - you will see that cutting is more robust and extensive - Georgian turn-over rims were the most expensive type of bowls to produce and designed to show off cutting skills.
The colour should definitely be slightly grey on period examples, and wear should be extensive on the underside of the foot, with probably some on the inside - they were used apparently as salad or fruit bowls.
Mark West says of period pieces that........'turn-over rims always have lemon-squeezer feet', also that decoration 'should extend to the edge of the rim'.

None of this means that your piece can't be Irish, and it may well be from 'the C19', but just that my opinion is that it's unlikely to be Irish AND from the late Georgian period you mention.
It's always worth bearing in mind that copies of earlier glass designs/shapes were made in the first half of the C20.

I agree with you that the making of some of these large pieces are feats of great skill  -  I have a very large bowl myself, although it's not a turn-over example  -  and their weight alone is quite staggering.
Outside of a very few pieces that show specific cutting designs, it's not usually possible to assign these things to any particular maker - glasses houses commonly used the same type of cuts making attribution nigh on impossible.

Perhaps others will have a better idea as to date.      

[courtney]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the speedy reply. As to the date you may be right. I have been jumping all over the net and checking books but thus far have only a composite idea of the bowl's origins. Most similar examples are simply described as Georgian, and so i surmised the approximate date.

As to the country of origin i feel confident in ascribing Ireland to the piece simply because the auctioned example, which fetched a good sum, was itself sold in the in the very place where one could imagine that the most immediate and authentic knowledge on Irish glass would be. I doubt the glass would have done well there had it been other than as described, at least as far as origin goes.

Colour is tricky. There is potentially a greyness to the glass (in the foot particularly), but i have not been able to compare it to other similar pieces so i don't know if this is just due to density (of the thick foot) and perhaps the period grey that is referred to is much more noticeable.

Wear to the base is in my opinion to vague and variable an indicator to use as a definitive hallmark of age, as pieces with a lot of wear may indicate either long life, or frequent use over a shorter period. These bowls are frequently described as fruit bowls however i doubt they would have been used in the way that we might use a fruit bowl today, dragging them up and down the dining table. It is my subjective opinion that the refinement of these pieces demand a level of reserve in terms of usage that they would have also communicated in the time that they were produced. But that's just my idea. These pieces just feel so decorative and absurdly delicate, i feel that they would have been 'saved for best', rather than used day-to-day. That's just my impression, though. I have next to NO actual knowledge of the period.

I am interested to look-up Mark West, are you referring to a particular publication? He sounds rather adamant and sure of his knowledge. Hopefully others have other ideas, too.

Cheers, and thanks again for the input.

[Paul S.]

hi  -  your comments about wear have some truth, and we have others on the Board who share your opinion that this feature doesn't necessarily substantiate age, but I'd prefer to see too much rather than too little

You don't mention whether this piece is of lead composition  -  it should have a good high class ring.

There have been comments here in recent times regarding auction data being less than accurate, and so personally I'd be cautious about taking their word as gospel - they may be correct, but having seen a lot of Irish glass from the late Georgian and Regency period, this one does not show the sort of cutting or colour that would indicate positively  c.1800 - 1820.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of glass described as Georgian (1714 - 1830), especially on ebay, much of which is of doubtful authenticity - nonetheless many folk buy these pieces based solely on someone's else's description - perhaps even without knowing for certain what they are buying!!

As I've said, most of the large glass houses have produced copies of C18 - early C19 glass at one time or another  -  it seems to have started c. 1880 - with quite a renaissance in the 1920 - 30 period, and some of these are very good reproductions, and it takes much experience to spot the difference.
Pieces made in the early C20 were bought and sold as copies  -  the trouble now is that in the intervening years that knowledge has been overlooked, and some are being sold as period.

Mark West is a respected glass consultant, and his comments to which I was referring occur in his pocket booklet that he did as consultant for Miller's ...    'Glass Antiques Check List'  -  1994   .....   a very useful little book.
I don't know what books you have, but for Irish material you will find Phelps Warren's 'Irish Glass' very good - the revised and expanded edition from 1981 (not the 1970 first edition)  -  and Geoffrey Wills' volume 'English and Irish Glass' has a lot of good solid information.
In terms of general history and information then Charles Hajdamach's two volumes  -  one on C19 glass and the follow up on C20 material are essential.

[courtney]

Hi Paul,

Firstly, so sorry for rechristening you Peter!

Thanks for the information, it is very interesting. I do not believe the glass to be a lead composition, but is 'lead composition' another term for crystal? I was under the impression that this kind of glass was usually glass, rather than crystal, but i may be misunderstanding the terminology.

It is so confusing to have to take reproductions into account, why couldn't glass companies keep it simple! Also, your advice about misattribution/misidentification by auction houses and other sellers is sound, people seem to love the idea of owning Georgian period glass so i am sure this motivation accounts for some of the inaccuracies, deliberate or wishful.

Wear is tricky, again. I own a huge piece of Italian glass, again a fruit bowl but this one dating to 1953 (might have to check that) and by Archimede Seguso from his Opalino a Coste series (link to another example below if anyone is curious) and in the most incredible untouched condition, really 'like new' as the ebayers say. And i also own other younger pieces that look almost as if they have been put through the washing machine But i would concur that more wear certainly makes a piece 'feel' older.

Thank you for the publication details, i will try to find those that you mention for a better look. Thanks again!

http://www.trocadero.com/stores/svazzo/items/948709/item948709.html

[Lustrousstone]

Crystal is generally glass but there is no such thing as just glass - composition varies widely though the basis is the same. Lead crystal is what was generally used for cut glass items as it give a better sparkle, but it was often used for good quality non-cut blown items too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass