Topic: Webb Cameo???

[David E]

This is the second piece I have seen listed, that does not look anything like Cameo to my untrained eye, but more like a pressed or blown moulding:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301482989576

Here is the SOLD listing from last week:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181627481816

Again, the squiggly 'Webb' signature (note, not "Webb's") is apparent, and a very similar textured background.

Any thoughts on this?

MODS: Whilst I appreciate the first mention is an active listing, the second is not. If it must be reviewed by the committee, please simply remove the link (only) - it will be easy enough for people to search for 'Webb Cameo' and find current listings.

[Lustrousstone]

I think they are fine for Webb Cameo Fleur

[David E]

Ah, OK - "untrained eye"...

MODS: Please dump this thread.

[Lustrousstone]

Other opinions might be worth soliciting. Cameo Fleur was the economy version though

[Paul S.]

Roger Dodsworth shows two pieces of cameo fleur in his 'BRITISH GLASS between the wars'  -  both have lily designs in relief and the form of stylization appears to agree with the decoration in David's links.
Dodsworth comments that both of the pieces shown in the book are simply marked 'Webb' in the relief decoration - as opposed to 'Webb's'.             In the Parkington auction catalogues this factory name on the vases is described as a 'cameo signature'.

If you look in the Thomas Webb museum catalogue (and elsewhere I believe), this particular range is described as 'Pseudo-Cameo'  -  presumably since someone didn't like the suggestion that they should be spoken of in the same breath as cameo work from the likes of George Woodall and Jules Barbe.              Might this be why Christine suggests cameo fleur was the economy version.

[chopin-liszt]

When you look at the edges of the blue in close up, they are not well-defined - they wobble all over the place.
I'd go with an "economy" version of whatever. The quality I'd expect from Webb's is just not there.

[Lustrousstone]

But they are Webb. Cameo Fleur was aimed at the mass market and used acid etching only, not engraving. Read about it in Art, Feat and Mystery by HW Woodward

[flying free]

and also see page 71 and 72 of 20th Century British Glass (2009) - Charles Hajdamach.
CH says (amongst long and detailed explanation on the process on both pages, including pictures of molds etc):
 ' This is the range which is often wrongly called 'Pseudo -Cameo'.   

(edited to add ... this phrase was specifically mentioned by CH and I wonder whether it might be to correct the phrase usage in previous books.  Paul mentions it being used in the Webb museum catalogue and it is also described as 'pseudo-cameo' in Cyril Manley's Decorative Victorian Glass which was produced in 1981 (page 83 item no 197), and which contains a number of errors).
m

[Paul S.]

We've been down this road before regarding this description, and a couple of years back Nigel gave his thoughts..........

""As for psuedo-cameo, this was the phrase used to refer to this type of glass ware when I first entered dealing 26 years ago. It has taken all this time, despite intervenning knowledge to correct. I suggest that it came about through someone latterly using the term and it catching on with collectors and dealers, and the mistake snowballed. Actually, I don't think it really matters how it arose, rather that we now use the right terminology.

Cheers, Nigel""

Trouble is that I'm now not sure what Nigel was saying the 'right terminology' should be

It's unfortunate that the expression was used in both Woodward's book and the Dennis Hall catalogue   -   sources that would be thought of as providing correct information.

[flying free]

Paul, as a matter of interest (I don't have either of those references), what year were they produced please?

mm, Art, Feat an Mystery is coming up as 1978.  I had been wondering whether the phrase used in Manley's book had influenced but since his book was produced 1981 then it seems Art Feat and Mystery came first.
m