Topic: Delicate Wine Glass, Engraved Design with Applied Ruby Panel & Gilt Coat Of Arms

[RoyJ99]

Sure will get on that shortly.

[RoyJ99]

Back and side views as requested.

[flying free]

There has been discussion on these before because I was querying whether a salt I have was  the Zwischengold technique.
Looking through the book
Glas des Historismus, Walter Spiegl, 1980, Klinkhardt and Biermann, there is a chapter entitled
'Doppelwand- und ,,Mildner'' - Glaser pages 140-147. '

My powers of translation aren't great so I can't read it and give the gist of the  whole chapter.

However it appears to call the double wall bechers 'Doppelwandbecher' and only then adds whether they have Zwischengold decoration. 
For example see page 143 Abb.177. 'Doppelwandbecher mit Zwischengold und Bemalung....'
So the descriptor of the double layers is Doppelwandbecher then there is an addition of Zwischengold if it has the gold decoration.  So technically these are Dopperwandbecher mit Zwischengold dekor.

The book also features black and white photos of some pieces that are not double walled but that have medallions in on pages 144,145and 146. and refers to them as having 'Einsatzmedaillons', for example Abb.179 'Becher mit zwei Einsatzmedaillons in der Art des J.J.Mildner.'

Rather than calling them Zwischengold bechers. 

So in this book, those with medallions appear to be referred to as Becher with inset medallion. No mention of Zwischengold . Being pedantic, I suppose that might be because none of the  medallions on any of those pieces are made in the Zwischengold technique, but two look as though they are to me.

So questions then -
I can understand that the technique of the double wall bechers is complicated and different to a medallion, however with a medallion the wall of the vessel is cut isn't it, with a hole made for the double walled medallion to be inserted? So that's still technically difficult to accomplish.

And the medallions are still decorated glass with gold leaf sandwiched between two layers of glass.  So therefore technically aren't they still Zwischengold decoration?  And isn't my salt as well?
 
The fact that the technique for sandwiching my salt picture is nowhere near as complicated as inserting a medallion in a wall of a goblet,or indeed inserting one becher inside another with sealed decoration between the two, is not relevant. Because the actual Zwischengold technique is 'sandwiched engraved gold leaf decoration between two layers of glass'.
It is not only called Zwischengold when it's 'sandwiched engraved gold leaf decoration between two walls of a double layer becher'.
Therefore the medallions and my salt are both Zwischengold... aren't they?

This is a link to my salt thread - I know... it's nowhere near as precious as these pieces but it is old and I believe it is the Zwischengold technique 
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55531.msg314667.html#msg314667
m
 

[oldglassman]

HI ,
             A couple of examples,

cheers ,
               Peter.

[RoyJ99]

Thank you both, think my head is going to explode lol but it is making some sense.

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
       These glasses look to have have the same "arms" as on your glass,maybe the auction house will have an idea what family it is,

   http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/konvolut-zehn-stengelglaser-618-c-157443b9b3

cheers ,
            Peter.

[flying free]

for the description of 'Zwischengoldglas' ( note.. not just the word Zwischengold) 

the Corning Dictionary says ..

'(German, “gold between glass”) A type of decoration, produced in Bohemia and Austria in the 18th century, in which a design in gold or silver leaf is incorporated between two vessels that fit together precisely. Unlike Hellenistic and Roman gold glass, which is fused, Zwischengoldglas is bonded with cement.'

http://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/zwischengoldglas

but then

shows this plaque described as Goldglas Plaque (Zwischengoldglas)
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/goldglas-plaque-zwischengoldglas

Made in Venice 1875-1899 diameter 16.8cm height 2.9cm

'PRIMARY DESCRIPTION
Transparent pale green glass with very many minute and few small bubbles; free-blown with sandwiched gold-leaf decoration. Two slightly concave circular glass sheets with a slightly convex center have been fused together, the bottom sheet having a straight rim serving as a band-like ring base and a very rough large pontil mark; the letter bears the golden decoration: apparently the portrait of a couple in a medallion, a "Roman- type" woman and a "13th plus 15th century-type" man, surrounded by a band consisting of six other male and female portraits in medallions; the six busts are framed by symbols, between the medallions are quatrefoils, each of them accompanied by four dots; the edge at the joining is roughly ground.'

So I think when they use the word 'vessels' it doesn't necessarily have to mean a double walled becher.

[RoyJ99]

Thanks for that link Peter, they do indeed have the same arms, I'll send an email to them tomorrow.

[flying free]

Just for the record, I can see a difference between the type of decoration on both the goblet medallion Peter posted and my salt, and the other pieces shown in the book and here (i.e. both double walled decorated pieces and the medallion items). And that is that the other pieces have flat gold leaf decoration with the picture 'scratched' into the gold leaf, whereas both the medallion on Peter's goblet and the flowers and leaves on my salt  are engraved and then have the gold infill in the engraving as far as I can see.
I've attached a close up of the picture on my salt - unfortunately you still can't see the engraving lines v well (best seen in this pic in the basket and on the leaves on the left of the picture) but on the full size pic they are very visible.
m

[Ivo]

There seems to be some uncertainty about Zwischengold here. The word Doppelwandbecher means double walled beaker. There is no point in making such an article unless you decorate it between the layers. Two slightly conical beakers are made, one fitting tightly into the other. The inner one is covered in gold leaf and decorated by scratching. The two vessels are then fitted together and the rims are sealed with 'cement'  - which is a resin or glue. The result is sandwiched gold, or Zwischengold.  In typical 18th century fashion, the result is of a breathtaking quality. Usually the outside is then panel cut.  The best examples I have seen are in the national  Museum I n Budapest. Zwischengold glass is extremely rare and is hard to find outside museums.

It is a completely different beast than gold filled engraving.