Topic: Is this a 'Prussian' shaped, three ring, late Georgian decanter?

[nick.a]

Hi,
I think this recent charity shop find may be a c1820 'Prussian' shaped three ring decanter with 'mushroom' stopper, but then I'm basing that on pictorial evidence from the internet. I would appreciate any pointers, information or advice from anyone, as to age, style, country of origin etc.
Many thanks
Regards
Nick

[Paul S.]

your description of the shape and neck ring decoration looks to be correct  -  although whether it is from the period you mention is more difficult to be certain of. 

This shape was most popular from about 1790 - 1830, and period examples should have the rings 'applied' - rather than formed together with the body as with later bottles.         With Georgian/Regency examples it's often possible to see the join where neck rings were attached to the body - almost a crack-like appearance.
Unfortunately for us, the shape was reproduced quite commonly in the early years of the C20, and probably at odd times since - and some of these are very good quality, and by now will have acquired a lot of wear.

There was massive variation in cutting with these things and the shape was not uncommon in a variety of European locations plus the States, so pinning this to a specific origin is a bit of a non-starter, although could well be British in origin.         This one looks to have less cutting than many  -  not sure but looks like slice cutting on the shoulder with vertical blazes, diamonds short cut panels lower down.

Is the stopper cut entirely, or is it moulded?   Apparently some mushrooms were partly moulded, although a lot were fully cut.           It should sit with a good fit.

Perhaps someone else will be stirred to comment

[nick.a]

Hi Paul,
I was hoping that you would reply, I've read a number of your posts on decanters and found them very informative as usual.
 All three of the neck rings are irregular, applied and have the joins which appear 'crack like'. I'd say the stopper was probably not moulded, there are no mould lines and there are striation/tooling signs to the neck. The 'mushroom cap' is totally covered with a cut star and the stopper fits tightly, so I'd guess it's probably original. Even if it's a more modern copy, it's still worth every penny of the £4.99 it cost me   . Thanks once again for all the helpfull information, it's much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Nick

[Paul S.]

hi nick  -  all I can say is that it sounds as though you have a real bargain - £4.99 is a steal for what you have there, even if yours is not c. 1810 - although from what you say it does appear it may be late Georgian.

not easy to describe in words what it is that makes something c. 1800 rather than a mid C20 copy  -  only experience and a lot of looking at old glass will help to understand the difference.
Colour, seeds in the glass, wear, the effects of cutting - just some of the features that help.     Modern glass is, usually, too clear and bright, and wear is a big help  -  not just in the obvious places, but on all those parts of the glass that come into contact with other objects  -  if something has been around for that length of time it acquires wear (and sometimes damage) in the most unlikely of places.
Most genuinely old pieces that we find in charity shops are either missing stoppers, cloudy, or chipped (relief diamonds so often have damage to their tips) - so if you do have a genuine piece and it's in good condition then you are lucky.

I know it's expensive, but if you are into decanters, then Andy McConnell's book 'The Decanter' is a must  -  not just for decanters, but it's such an interesting read   -  Neil tells us that Andy is bringing out a new edition - but when I'm not sure.          Until then a copy might cost you a lot of shekels, so might be an idea to wait for a while.        Perhaps one of us should speak to the author and see if there is a time line to the project.

[nick.a]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. I'd like both of Andy's books, but there's also Slack and Cottle, and I've only just bought the Sowerby CD's and Hajdamach. The problem is, the more this 'obsession' grabs you, the more expensive it becomes. My primary interest is English pressed glass, but I always seem to buy any of the sparkly stuff that catches my eye. Lately I seem to have acquired a 'Newcastle' ribbed decanter, a Webb's 'Bristol' blue ships decanter and this 'Prussian' one. Not quite a collection yet, but I may have to stop it in it's infancy, I haven't the space. Then again, there's something about them  .
Kind Regards
Nick

[Paul S.]

would like to see a pic of your 'Newcastle' decanter, if possible Nick.       I've no experience of pieces classified as such, but McConnell appears to be suggesting there is some doubt as to the value of this description, insofar as most of them look to have been made 'in soda glass across Europe, probably excepting Britain'.
It's a term that may have been coined by dealers "possibly awarded because they were imported through the port of Newcastle"  -  most appear to be either tapers or prussians, and with a high proportion having mushroom stoppers.

Was the seller able to substantiate this provenance in any way, or is this simply your own stab at origin?

Decanters are almost limitless in their variety  - you may need a bigger house, eventually.

[Baked_Beans]

According to Therle Hughes "Decanters and Glasses" Country Life Books, 1982, he says ' by the late 1820's to 1830's ,however , the most important decorative detail was probably the wide shallow vertical flute ' . ....i.e. the cuts fanning out below the bottom neck ring on this example  .The base looks similar to photos of bases to Prussian shaped decanters , also shown in the book , which date from c1790. He also mentions that 'shallow geometrical cutting gave place to the deep cutting, that was developed gradually in the early 19th century '

Your cuts,Nick, look quite shallow as far as I can see .

I have a Regency water carafe with similar joins in the neck rings (only two) as Paul mentioned above plus yours has loads of age to the base it seems.

Cheers, Mike

[Paul S.]

hope you won't object to my correction Mike  -  Therle Hughes was in fact a lady  -  the wife of G. Bernard Hughes

Regret this is not a book that I have - although I do have the lady's volume 'Sweetmeat & Jelly Glasses' - small and rather brief, but very interesting.

[Baked_Beans]

Hells-Bells !!

So she is ....so sorry 

I was too tied-up in the detail to reference the author properly 

P.S. No base photos are shown in the book but on page 84 (top right) there are two Prussian decanters that have bases which have markedly depressed bases...i.e not flat with polished pontil mark.

[nick.a]

Hi Paul,
I'll gladly post a seperate topic on the 'Newcastle' decanter when I have a minute to take some pics. Ebay has plenty, mostly with a ballon type stopper like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=&_osacat=50693&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xnewcastle+pillar+decanter.TRS0&_nkw=newcastle+pillar+decanter&_sacat=50693. Mine has a mould blown feel to it with two applied neck rings and a rough pontil.
The name seems to be generic, and your/ Andy's explanation of the derivation seems plausible ('Bristol' blue thing). I used the name because when I was searching for an ID initially I used Google Images and that was what came back, I've since read it on several sites and, if I remember rightly, some publications. The guy who sold it to me at a local bootsale had little idea about it hence the £1.00 cost .
Glass collecting is like a highly enjoyable virus, but I might draw a line at the house move .
Kind Regards
Nick