Topic: Small Georgian tumbler

[bat20]

Hi all,I pushed the button on this one and it's just arrived,I guess it's an ale tumbler with nicely engraved barley ,hop and leaf,it's about 3" high with a broken pontil.The seller thought it was about 1800/1820 in date,but I'm just wondering if it could be a tad earlier?any thoughts many thanks.

[Paul S.]

Always possibly  -  hop and barley engraving started, apparently, around 1760  -  is this one lead glass??

[bat20]

Yes it is,I have found some glasses with very similar engraving dated to about 1770,but it maybe tricky to pin tumblers down?

[Paul S.]

not that simple, unfortunately - hops and barley engravings were around for a very long time and adorned a variety of glass shapes - from very rare instances of Lynn tumblers c. 1760's (see the Delomosne catalogue for the Wilmot collection) - the more common dwarf ale of the second half C18/early C19 (see Ronald Gabriel's 'English Drinking Glasses') - and on through to late C19 copies of Georgian rummers (see Stephen Parry's 'DWARF ALE GLASSES and their Victorian Successors').
The quality of engraving of h. & b. can be variable too - this one is perhaps not that good.

On its own the unpolished pontil scar is unreliable - these can be found from the C18 well into the C19.

Tumbler shapes can be diverse - barrels, waisted, tapering/slightly tapering sides, almost parallel sided, and seems many of these shapes overlap in date  -  no doubt for the usual reason that regional progression of styles/fashion lacked a common rate of advance.                 Those examples with disproportionate height to width are quoted as being specifically from c. 1825 - 30.
Quoting from John A. Brooks 'Glass Tumblers 1700 - 1900' regarding shape, he says..........

"".............most tumblers of the C18 conform to a consistently plain pattern with parallel or slightly tapering sides, a flat base between a quarter and half inch thick and the greater majority with a pontil mark.     The average height is four inches and the consistency of size and style during most of the century is because they were all hand made""   

It's sometimes easier to date better quality pieces due to the appearance of specific engraved subjects or particular decorative features such as blazes - but of no use here. 

To my eyes this looks perhaps just a little too tall for its width to be as early as you've suggested, so my own opinion might be somewhere around
1790 - 1815, but you can see how complex it can be dating these things and not really my area, and we lack a good dedicated book to help.                     Neil used to do these things - perhaps he might look in.                 
 

[Lustrousstone]

Is this the sort of thing you are talking Paul? http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=969 http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=970

[bat20]

Thanks for the replies,the base is 5 cm in diameter and the rim 6.25,I suppose the engraving is not that good in the sense of the engraver was told to get a certain amount done in a day,but in that brief it is good in so much as it works very well and effectively,not an easy thing to do ,I know having done similar repetitive decoration myself in a past life,but it can be argued such work can be more lively than over worked pieces,probably not a view held by many Georgian glass collectors I would imagine.If there are any Georgian glass historians out there we need a book on tumblers!.

[Paul S.]

wouldn't worry about the engraver's level of competence, there's lots of rustic charm in naivety - just that when you do see some of the top-end engraving they remind you of the vast difference in skills.       Would be helpful if others gave their opinions on this, but don't think we have too many collectors of tumblers.

If Christine is referring to my comments about 'disproportionate' tumblers, then maybe hers is not of that sort, although don't think any dimensions have been given.            I get the feeling that - like those in the attached picture - tapering, rather than parallel sides, was a feature this particular shape had in common.        My two are 4.7/8" tall and 4.1/8" wide at the rim so you can see how their proportions differed from the norm   -   unfortunately, the camera tends not to show quite how distinctive they really are.             One has an unpolished and sharp scar, and the other a polished depression - both lead glass and showing bases of fairly uniformly thick glass across the width.

Could be very wrong, but the inside base of Christine's glass looks unusual for a blown tumbler - and more akin to the effect of a mould.    Some mould made glasses were finished on a pontil rod, and this would have required that the scar was removed, thus giving the depression on the bottom.       That base looks so thick, and the slightly pointed centre to the cavity seems at odds with free blown glass, and most of the earlier hand made tumblers in the books - but then again I know nothing about German tumblers.

[bat20]

Thanks again Paul,I've doubled my knowledge or more just from this thread!I don't think I put my point about the engraving very well,what I was trying to say is I think this engraver given a different brief could also do the top end stuff for the toffs,I would think these little barley wine tumblers were made in large numbers and needed to be engraved quickly to turn a profit,so infact he has done a very good job with a few skilled cuts,the hop for example has nothing to it,but it works very well with the high relief in just the right places ,he has also filled the space well.Maybe the apprentices started on hop and barley and moved to the better quality glasses,if so I think this one was just getting to the end of his first seven years.

[Paul S.]

Your tumbler is perhaps a little more special than I suspect you realize - dwarf ales with h. & b. engraving are two-a-penny, but tumblers with this decoration far less common, so it's a good find.            No idea as to why it appears than folk were drinking ale from the longer glass more commonly - perhaps simply fashion, but you'll find a fair amount of information on the dwarf ales, and a lot less on tumblers, and interest in collecting stemmed/long glasses seems to outweigh that of tumblers.
Your comment that they produced these little tumblers with h. & b. decoration, commonly, may be correct, but I don't have one

Attached a some pix showing more extensive engraving.........   the shorter tumbler is a Union (Scotland/England/Ireland) glass from c. 1805 showing thistles, shamrock and English roses.
The larger glass is Masonic Glass of Plenty c. 1840, and includes the Masons name  -  the engraving extends to the base as you can see, but I don't know it that is supposed to be a particular bloom, or just stylized.    Lots of ears of barley and of course the compass and set square.

[bat20]

Really like those ,thanks for posting them,I wonder if you might have an early wheat variety there?umm no I didn't realise they were rarer than the glasses