Topic: Are these vases the same shape or is it my eyesight?

[flying free]

I think these vases (the middle one of the colour illustration from the 1862 Exhibition)
and the one in the link from the Hermitage, are the same shape.
Anyone think the same?

http://www.albion-prints.com/decorative-1863-antique-print-glass-by-w-hoffman-prague-33-20446-p.asp

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/37089/?lng=en

Thoughts warmly welcomed please
thanks
m

[KevinH]

I should not really answer this, as even with my specs on, I see things slightly distorted such that objects look taller to me than they really are. Without the specs, I get distorted curvatures - differently in each eye.

And then there is the photographic effect of different camera lenses (focal length especially) and distance to subject.

But ... I see the two vases as the same general shape with the same specific features - rim form, neck form, "merese" type connections to top and base of the gently tapered body, and smoothly curved foot stem.

However, measuring proportions (within each item) of various elements, such as height of body compared to height of neck and width of lower "merese" compared to width of foot at the base, they differ. And I think the heritage example has a more rounded lower section of the foot.  But I would expect those sort of differences from handmade items.

[flying free]

Yes I thought that the Hermitage vase might be slightly slimmer and a little more elongated than the other.
However the other picture is from 1863- is it a colour plate representation.  I don't know whether it was a watercolour or a coloured photograph of some sort??
 I have seen photographs of the Philadelphia exhibition but that was 1870s. 
I think the colour plate may well have been a coloured lithograph or painting.  So that 'might' explain the slight difference in proportions.  On the other hand they tended to be pretty damn good on that front.

Just wondering because I have never seen another Russian vase in that shape as far as I recall - have been doing a LOT of searching over the last few days as well, so relatively fresh in my mind..
m

[flying free]

mm,see the thing is, I was thinking that maybe the Hermitage might have  their id wrong .... but .... I then remembered this one
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/990075/?lng=en

And that one has a quite remarkable similarity in decor with the middle one in that colour group picture
http://www.albion-prints.com/decorative-1863-antique-print-glass-by-w-hoffman-prague-33-20446-p.asp

when I look in my Harrach book under a magnifying glass 

It's not the same design but the colours and the grid design are so remarkably similar. 
I'm not trying to catch anyone out, I'm just wondering if that Etruscan vase is correctly identified to try and help with something else.

(btw the one in the Harrach book has not been claimed by Harrach - another one on the left of that colour group has which is why the picture is shown).

m

[flying free]

Cheating here so mods may have to delete all the pics but for the sake of research and education I've put these on 

 there are many similarities between a Russian Floor vase in the Hermitage museum and that vase in the Harrach book (Neuwelt to Whole World) (that vase in the book is not id'd as Harrach but was one of a display of vases at the 1862 Exhibition by Wilhelm Hofmann - one vase on the left has been identified as a Harrach piece.  The othersdo not have an  identified maker)

The colours of the enamels are similar when you see the real pictures rather than my photographs which distort the colour, the moorish design is similar, the elements of the enamelling are very similar when you look at the colour plate under a magnifying glass and compare them to the floor vase. The gilding around the  rim of the mouth of the vase is similar, it appears as though the shoulder ridge on the colour plate vase can be found as a design element on the floor vase at the base of the neck - it's difficult to tell if they are constructed in the same way because one is a very old colour plate/photograph from 1862 reproduced.  Both have little blobs of enamel around the raised shoulder ridge/lower ridge of the neck (again difficult to see on the colour plate but under a magnifiying glass they are definitely there.)  The colour on the colour plate distorts but I think they are white blobs on a darker gilded background as per the Russian floor vase.

The Hermitage id'd their floor vase (80cm tall) from a drawing, as Imperial Glass Manufactory.  So did Wilhelm Hofmann also 'sell' Imperial Glass Manufactory products does anyone know?

Open to any thoughts - please enlarge the photos if you can as then the detail can be seen more clearly.

Thanks
m

[flying free]

Does anyone have any views on the pictures I posted above please?
Thanks for any observations.
m

[AdrianW]

Not sure whether it helps or not, but I've attempted to straighten up the colour lithograph image for you As it is a lithograph I don't know how much value we can put on the proportions/geometry of the vase.

My view is that the patterns are similar between the vases in your latest post, but there's more detail in the Hermitage example; and the white borders around the repeat pattern are also much narrower. The name of the file at the Heritage Museum says "in the Egyptian Style", so I suspect the pattern is not uncommon? That said, a quick Google didn't show anything similar, so...

[flying free]

Thanks yes I can see that the 'divider' moorish style grid lines are thicker on the one in the lithograph,
 but ... if I look at the print of the lithograph in the Harrach book I believe that the ochre pattern inside the grid lines actually has a darker orangey intricate colour pattern on it as well - it just doesn't show up in the lithograph reprint.  I think the colours are the 'reverse' colours of the one in the Hermitage.

The link I am trying to make is to understand whether the vase on the left of my composite photo below  is definitely Russian.  It is identified in the Hermitage as Russian. (excuse quality of composite but it was the only way to try and get the designs to show up)

The vase in the middle of my composite was part of a display from Wilhelm Hoffman at the Great Exhibition 1862.  I think it is the same basic shape and construction (albeit foot applied slightly further up the body and therefore a slightly wider merese/knop where the foot joins the body) as the vase on the left of the composite which is in the Hermitage collection.

The vase on the right of composite is also in the Hermitage collection id'd as Russian.  I think it is similar to the vase in the middle in that it has that ridge and has the same or very similar design decor throughout.

All good so far then ... if all my observations/musings are actually correct, then it all ties together nicely yes?  They are Russian.
Well not quite - 

I have another vase that  has  similarities with the decor of the vase on the left (the Etruscan Hermitage vase) and is also uranium base glass as that vase is.

I would love it to be Russian and, on first glance, the vase on the left along with another piece in the museum could support this although there are noexact similarities in either decoration or shape.

However:
I have matched the shape of my vase with another vase in a Bohemian Glass book.  The other vase is unidentified except for 'Norbohmen'(North Bohemian).
 On first glance the decor of the other vase 'could' be Russian.  However, I have searched extensively and I am not convinced, because I cannot match either the shape (which doesn't 'feel' Russian at all) or any of the decor features (it has two or three specific types of decoration on it, some are gilded).


So, I am now wondering would the Wilhelm Hofmann Company have been displaying vases from the Imperial Glass Manufactory at the Great Exhibition in 1862, or is that unlikely? if unlikely  then it might be possible that both those vases in the Hermitage are incorrectly identified as Russian when they might be Bohemian. 

If they are Bohemian then that would tie in slightly with my  vase and the vase in the book.
On the other hand, I've not been able to match either my vase shape or those in the composite with anything Bohemian either 
Sorry - long explanation.

m

[flying free]

just updating this as I came across the vase in the lithograph in the Corning with a picture that has much better detail:
http://www.cmog.org/library/masterpieces-industrial-art-sculpture-international-exhibition-1862-selected-and-described?image=1&search=library_collection%3Ab819b3281665288b77c5cfd36d81f367&page=220

I am pretty sure  that the one pictured above in the Corning link (that I've previously shown on this thread) and the one in the Hermitage here
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/990075/?lng=en

 are from the same maker/enameller/designer.  However

... the one shown in the Corning picture states it is from the 1862 International Exhibition and

... the one shown in the Hermitage says theirs is Russian and dates to 1867

'Floor Vase in the Egyptian Style
Russia, 1867
Title:
Floor Vase in the Egyptian Style
Place of creation:
Russia
Manufacture, workshop, firm:
Imperial Glass Factory
Authors:
The author of a drawing: 1833-1878; Painter: 1843-1901
Date:
1867
Material:
opaque beige-yellow glass
Technique:
blowing, polychrome painting with enamels
Dimensions:
80x32x32 cm
Inventory Number:
ЭРС-2225'

Not quite sure what all this means but leaving the info here for now.
m

[flying free]

for the Corning link, if you click on it and then click 'open in a new window' it will open and enlarge to the correct picture of the Egyptian style vase along with the three other vases.

Where I am going with it is, I think the 'Floor vase in Egyptian style' in the Hermitage and the vase in the Lithograph are from one and the same maker.

If this is true, then either:
 a) the lithograph shows a Russian vase, which, given it is remarkably similar in shape to another vase identified as Russian in the Hermitage, is a possibility (Etruscan style vase I showed earlier in the thread).  This would then indicate that the retailer was selling both Russian and Bohemian glass (one vase in that group has been shown in the Harrach book as Harrach).
or
b) the Egyptian style floor vase in the Hermitage could possibly be Bohemian as it is possible that the lithograph shows vases from only Bohemian makers given one has been identified as Harrach.

Either outcome I think could impact on the origin of the Etruscan style vase I showed earlier, in the Hermitage, which is remarkably similar in shape to the one in the lithograph.

Since I own a very large Etruscan style vase with similar design to the one in the Hermitage, this could indicate the possible origin of my vase.

I am leaning towards the vases in the lithograph all being Bohemian in origin but those are just my hunches at the moment.
m