Topic: Vase signed G.S.F. - American?

[chilternhills]

There is an attractive vase currently on eBay which is said to be Victorian cameo glass and signed on the base by hand G.S.F. I have found another two pieces of the same pattern on a Boston, Mass. auction site. Perhaps the maker is American. Any ideas who the maker is? I can't find a thing on the Internet about the maker's mark, which is somewhat surprising.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371701332905

[Paul S.]

European Victorian cameo wares, and those for a decade or so into the C20, show cameo decoration work almost exclusively of a naturalistic style i.e. either flora or fauna, or a combination of the two, rather than geometric patterning - so this piece is unusual in its appearance.
Why don't you simply ask the seller for provenance to support their 'Victorian attribution'.                  Of course it is always possible that this is from the States, so perhaps there was a factory producing this unusual decorative style of cameo.

Regret I can't help with the lettering.

[flying free]

There is a huge huge thread on this signature under fish scale or fishscale I think.
I;ll try and find it.  I put many links on that thread trying to work out the maker.

This is the link to that thread - I think it has all the info so far.

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,35137.msg190335.html#msg190335

[Paul S.]

thank you m.              I shall be at Kew for much of today  -  to save the time of wading through all those pages, is there a chance you might be able to summarize some sort of conclusion for us?

[flying free]

looking for some clues as to who G S F or G L F was.
Vases appear to date to c.1886 possibly. January?

reg design number on it of 41925 if it's possible to check what is said about this number?

any information available on Webb reg design - shell shape pattern was registered by Thomas Webb on October 8 1886, no 58374 -

 there are now many of these vases out there signed GSF or GLF.
Who was that GSF?

Is there any information that can be found linking Webb to GSF? 
From memory I believe Alisha has said she believes they were made by Harrach.

Thanks Paul - anything you can find would be helpful

There is one particularly bulbous shaped vase with a zig zag collar that is quite an unusual shape which could help possibly - shape here (also seen in pink that looks like a bottom in a pair of pink fishnet tights  )
http://eronjohnsonantiques.com/products/g0720-english-stevens-and-williams-koi-decorated-glass-vase

Thanks for anything you might come across to help solve this mystery.
m

[chilternhills]

The previous thread seems to be about the same pattern as this one.

To summarize the previous thread:

Signature: interpreted as either G.L.F. or G.S.F. I see it as G.S.F. Perhaps it was the gilder's mark rather than a makers mark.

Maker: There is a strong preference for either Thomas Webb or Harrach.

If you want to buy the vase: too late! I bought it! It was too gorgeous to leave and will go into IOW Glass Museum.

One question though: is it definitely a cameo or some other technique? I can't be sure from just the pictures.

[Paul S.]

thanks to both of you .........    sorry, I've obviously missed an opportunity - I'd left the house for Kew promptly after posting my note, so wasn't aware of the request to check this T/Webb Registration, and don't posses a smartphone so can't check things on the hoof;D   
However, should be possible to solve the question quickly.
Unfortunately, I no longer have my copy of Gulliver, but I do know that he includes most of the T/Webb Registrations for decorative designs in the back of his book..........    so we need someone to check the book please.               Either that or has Fred got any of my earlier pix from Kew that would show both of these Registrations?
Relying on memory, but am I correct in saying that T/Webb Registered a 'shell shaped pattern', but only for the purposes of a handle design?      Thought someone had added these things to the Board, somewhere.

Must admit I wasn't entirely sure about the middle letter - but whatever, think the letters could well be the gilders initials.           Certainly on Continental wares, many pieces do carry the decorators initials.          Do these letter look Continental rather than British?           

There seems to be a lot of speculation and assumption about the attribution of these things, without any real provenance  -  was wondering if the gilding might have influenced folk to think of Jules Barbe  -  wasn't he T/Webb?.                       Can't see anything remotely like this in CH's C19 Glass - re chapter on Cameo glass.

It may be significant if these pieces only ever turn up in the States??

Is it known if T/Webb ever produced this sort of finish on a cameo piece??  -  and why did Alisha 'believe' this was Harrach?

Quote                  .....   "One question though: is it definitely a cameo or some other technique? I can't be sure from just the pictures."
Not long to wait  -  then when it arrives, you can tell us

Quote         ........   "If you want to buy the vase: too late! I bought it"     ...........   American Express??    

[KevinH]

Checking "Gulliver" ...

Quote from "m":

reg design number on it of 41925 if it's possible to check what is said about this number?

any information available on Webb reg design - shell shape pattern was registered by Thomas Webb on October 8 1886, no 58374 -

41925 = not listed in the section for Thomas Webb & Sons Limited
58374  = "Oct 8, 1886. Diaper of semi-circular lines forming a decorative pattern"
The line drawing shows a "scale" decoration with each "scale" in the form an upright arch and having three lines to the arch. (m had referenced what was probably this decoration, but I think the link to a pic is now dead.)

Quote from Paul S.

Relying on memory, but am I correct in saying that T/Webb Registered a 'shell shaped pattern', but only for the purposes of a handle design?

Yes, this was covered by 212674 for a shell-shaped handle, pouring spout, foot. And 212675 for a shell-shaped prunt, matching 212674. And 212676 for a variation of the top of a handle. And 212677 for an applied circular prunt matching 212674. All of those designs were Oct 19, 1867.

[Paul S.]

thanks  -  interesting to note that Rd. 41925 dated 26th January 1886 is included in Thompson, and described by her (although possibly taken from another location) as "Pattern worked on body of the glass to represent fish scales"  -  in view of it's inclusion here do we assume this was a decorative form applying to pressed glass only?                  Sorry, is this a dead end?  -  not quite sure now how we got to this Rd. No.

The Registrant for 41925 was Wittmann & Roth, London, 'Glass & China Manufacturer'.

Edited ............   that's probably a rubbish comment  - there must be cut glass design Nos. included in Thompson.

in the Grover's book covering 'Art Glass Nouveau', there's quite a list of artists working in the field of cameo work, but regret can't fit these initials into the frame.

[flying free]

that reg number has been seen on the bottom of one or maybe two pieces of this fishscale design vases with the signature GSF ( GLF ) iirc which is how we came to get the Whitman and Roth and the design number.

Whitman and Roth - not a lot known about them
GSF ( GLF ) - iirc nothing known about him/her/them

Again, if my memory serves me, there has been some discussion about Whitman and Roth and Harrach somewhere, or a possible link between the two along the lines of Whitman and Roth (possible distributor/designer) and Harrach (the maker).  There was a piece written in somewhere which is how this possible line of though came to be.
But iirc this is still speculation.

Again if my memory serves me, I think Alisha said she'd seen a piece with this fishscale pattern on in the Harrach museum??? and so had her piece down as Harrach I think.

The problem I think, is that I found a pair of vases sold by Fieldings id'd as Thomas Webb.  They had the same collar gilded pattern as a fishscale vase.
I'm not sure how Fieldings came to know their pair of vases were definitely Thomas Webb.  And without definitive source I am naturally suspicious that the pair actually were Thomas Webb. 

We have no further known facts on this.
m