Topic: Obsidian? glass black paperweight with knop and gilded band

[flying free]

On the thread on Letter-weights here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62881.msg352975.html#msg352975

I posted about a large paperweight with a knop handle that I own:

I have one (I 'think'?)
  I don't know what it's made of as I've never been able to work it out.  It's some form of stone enamelled over possibly, it's extremely heavy almost as though it's iron but I don't think it is.  Possibly French but I think at least Victorian in era - reminds me of something a governmental department office might use.

I have just come across a picture of a lump of broken obsidian on page 7 of the book Baguiers et Verre a Boire, Leon Darnis.
It has a very shiny black exterior and then a grainy clay like lump in it ... just like the texture that can been on the close up of the tiny nick on my paperweight!   
So ... presumably obsidian is heavy, as my paperweight it, and presumably my paperweight could have been fashioned and polished out of a largish piece of obsidian? 

There are some large spheres of Obsidian for sale here -
http://www.mineralminers.com/html/obssphs.stm
perhaps this was something popular to carve in the Victorian era? Is that possible?

See here for an large example of Obsidian glass rock
http://geology.com/rocks/obsidian.shtml

and this is what the base on a recently ? carved piece of obsidian looks like - I think my weight is Obsidian glass.
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/cinco-japon/item/objeto02/?s-id=borderless_recommend_item_en

A very exciting possibility

ok, so now I'm pretty sure this is Obsidian glass.  So what country was it made in?  I believe it dates probably 1870s or so based on a similar design shape with a label which I've discussed on the other thread.

[donaldf]

Obsidian has a concoidal fracture, similar to glass, so the photo you have of the fracture has that scooped-out look, so yes it probably is obsidian. In the U.K. Obsidian occurs in very few places, but is found on Arran on the Scottish west coast. They used to make curling stones from microgranite also found on Arran so it is possible that it was made there.The skills and equipment required for Polishing microgranite to a glass finish would make polishing obsidian to a smooth sphere easy. One line of research??

[flying free]

Thank you very much for your additional information.  I will go and explore that route and see what transpires.
m

[LesBeatiques]

Interesting piece.
My feeling is that this made out of black glazed earthenware or stoneware not unlike similar antique doorknobs or insulator caps. If I'm interpreting the first image properly you can see where the glaze breaks at the outer circumference where the black meets the wood. When glaze is fired it thins over sharp corners and appears lighter.

Eric

[flying free]

Hi
I'm not quite sure what you mean?  There is no wood on this piece.
It's all glass/or something but not wood. 
The base is made to look like that (if it were glass it would be chalcedony type glass- if it's Obsidian then that is what it can look like from the few pictures I've been able to find).
The base is incredibly incredibly smooth to touch even though it might not look like it in the photo - really smooth like touching silk and very cold.

Where do you see the 'glaze' breaking up in the first picture please?  Do you mean in the bit I've photographed of the nick?  That is a massively enlarged photo taken through a strong magnifying glass as well as camera lens.  It's tiny but I've enlarged it to try and see any detail.  There are no sharp corners or edges on the weight at all despite what the photos might look like.  I think you might mean where the curved outer meets the base?  that is smooth as smooth can be and still curved not a sharp edge at all.  It's extremely hard to explain with photos rather than holding the piece.


Sorry for the questions and repeating myself, but at the moment I can't see that it can be pottery glazed... and I've tried really hard as I thought it might be.  I'm open to any help and will look up the doorknobs though I know exactly the ones you mean as we have the white version originals on our sitting room doors.  It's remarkably heavy.

I am thinking how would you find a piece of Obsidian that is completely black but then has the striped base?
I suppose it could have looked something like this chunk (first one on link site) before cutting?
http://www.sandatlas.org/volcanic-glass/

 I'll do some more searching of 'chunks' to see if that might be possible.  Although in the 1851 exhibition it mentioned in the catalogue that 7 tons was brought in for polishing, from Palermo
https://archive.org/stream/officialdescrip00goog#page/n338/mode/2up/search/obsidian

I should think that from 7 tons it might be easy to get a section that fitted the bill?

edited - oh did you mean the first picture in the other thread?  I'll find that photo and link it here as well.
I can see what you mean now looking at that photo (see below)

Thanks for your help and suggestions

[flying free]

This is the best picture I could get of a carved piece of obsidian where there is polished black but the underneath of the polished surface area is striated or mottled and not polished black finish.
http://picclick.ca/Obsidian-Onyx-Stone-Bust-Figure-Pre-Columbian-Antique-Sculpture-Maya-142088102726.html#&gid=1&pid=2

I think it shows that where the polished black meets the striated/mottled/unpolished? area it has the same kind of 'join' where the edge appears to break up as I think was meant about a glaze edge.

I've taken some photos of the Victorian doorknob glazed (white).  I'll upload them to here to show.  Fortunately the door knob is damaged right were the glaze ends on the ceramic, but there are no curved 'bowls' of damage showing on any of the damage, as there is on the black polished part of the nick on the paperweight.

m

[flying free]

pics of antique doorknob for comparison to the paperweight chip:

I'm not sure about this at all.  I don't see how, with the striated base as it is, that it can be pottery really.

I think it  has been ground polished on a wheel as the base shows I think (?) with the circular marking - any thoughts on this?
But that doesn't hide the linear striations on mine.

I can't see a similar chip on the doorknob (glazed ceramic) as the one on the paperweight but I can see similar chips on my dinner plates! because presumably glaze is glass so will chip in that curved bowl shaped way.

I look at the top and think it must be either ceramic or hyalith glass
I look at the base and think it must be obsidian as it doesn't look like either hyalith, ceramic or black glass.
I look at the edge of the shiny black area and wonder is it polished obsidian or is it ceramic glazed?

It's just weird.  If it's ceramic glazed would it fit with an 1850-70 date where the pieces I've found for comparison are a c.1850 Clichy glass piece?

It's quite 'rare' - I have found one other example also with gilded bands.
There are two other examples in the same shape that I have found with labels still on, and appear to point to c.1870.   
However they also both appear to be ceramic/pottery pieces glazed with a malachite design and colour glaze.
The one I have found that is similar to mine in black, is very difficult to see what the base really looks like because of the way the photograph has been taken.

Very grateful for any thoughts and thanks for looking.
m

[flying free]

sorry here are the pictures

[flying free]

a better link to some obsidian pieces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian

here some plates and bowls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian#/media/File:ObsidianWareLopezMAPHidalgo2.JPG

on the edge of the bowls if you enlarge the pictures  you can see where the polished underneath meets the unpolished top surface I think?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/ObsidianWareLopezMAPHidalgo2.JPG


The images of where the polished 'outer' surface meets the very edge of the unpolished inner surface or 'food' surface  don't look any different in effect to a glazed piece of pottery to me. 
In fact they look just like the edge where the polished upper surface of my paperweight meets the bottom flat striated surface. 
Anyone else think the same?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Takalik_Abaj_obsidian_1.jpg

These are pieces of what they call 'goldsheen' obsidian - they appear to have the browny striations especially this one
http://www.spiritrockshop.com/images/_00971.JPG
- could it be this?
http://www.spiritrockshop.com/Obsidian_Gold_Sheen.html

As an aside, I weighed the weight against a piece of granite I own of a similar size but excluding the knop.  The weight is proportionately more in weight than the granite piece as I would have expected. 
I've no idea if this adds anything to the debate or of the density of granite and volcanic glass obsidian but they were in proportion to what I had roughly calculated between the two.

[flying free]

There are two malachite design weights with labels on
One has a label for Perry & co with addresses visible.
They were still in Red Lion Square and 3 Cheap side which is on the label, in 1876 but moved to Holborn viaduct in 1877.
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Perry_and_Co

However it says that by 1876 they had become Perry & Co Ltd


See advert top right on that page

see Malachite (ceramic?) paperweight with Perry and Co label on here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190803927866?clk_rvr_id=1106144163735&rmvSB=true

So whatever my black one is made of, it possible it probably dates to around 1876 or earlier given the label on this one is Perry & Co.
The company started as James Perry & Co and became Perry & co sometime after 1847  - they were listed as Perry & co in the Great Exhibition Catalogue in 1851.

This link gives more information on Perry & Co with regard to how they sold items in their catalogues including things like Needle cases and fancy goods.  They do list particular items on this page but no reference to paperweights.

http://www.coulthart.com/avery/company-pages/perry-history.html

In 1874 it appears they were listing paperweights in their price guide (cannot access the whole thing)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MTMGAAAAQAAJ&dq=perry+%26+co&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=paperweight

m