Topic: Rummer?

[Sandpiper]

Hi all, is this an old rummer? It's one of a set of 6 I've just bought. They're about 4 inches high,very heavy and quite variable in shape. They have rough pontils that often seem to be in the form of 4 spots The thick straight stem is throwing me to be honest. Look 1970s to me but I'm a complete novice! They came in a mixed lot that included a more traditional looking (to me) pub rummer with a waisted stem. . Apologies for poor photo but I could only really show the stem well by lying it sideways. Many thanks.

[Paul S.]

hi  - - not a shape that would make me think of a rummer, and a better description might be a goblet, but others might have a better idea.
A first clue as to whether these are old, or c. 1970 as you suggest, would be the extent of wear under the foot  -  a lot if these were old, but very little if as recent as you are suggesting.              What was the seller's description when you bought them?       If you have bought six then it's possibly not the case that they are very old - the foot looks unlikely to be a style from an older rummer. 

Rummers can be tavern pieces, and sometimes private glasses - the former would be of a lesser quality, but the waisted stem you describe is usually known as a capstan stem - for obvious reasons - and was one of the original stem profiles on very early rummers from C.1800  -  not that I'm suggesting your other rummer is from that period, just that this style of stem goes back a long way, almost to the beginning of the appearance of the rummer around the end of the C18.

[Sandpiper]

Thanks Paul. There is a fair amount of wear under the foot so maybe they're older than I thought. More research needed, but that's part of the fun for a newbie!

[Paul S.]

I hate to be a killjoy, especially, when you're so full of keenness - but, these lesser quality drinking glasses almost always defy precise dating, place of origin, and manufacturer.    If, as you say, your six are of variable shape, and possibly size too, then they are probably not a set, and perhaps just similar glasses put together by a seller to create more interest for buyers.         I'm not aware that you can research such pieces in anything like the detail that you can with better quality glasses of a particular type.
Pub and tavern glasses from the C19 and first half C20 were made in vast quantities, and are found commonly still  -  so, how can you determine whether your glasses are old or recent?

Wear can be a good indicator  -  but it has to be the sort that a glass picks up gradually over many decades  -  a good matte underside to the foot where it sits is a start  -  then there is the appearance of the underneath of the foot - is there a snapped pontil scar, or a smooth depression where this has been ground/polished away -  or can you see a vaguely T or Y shaped mark in the centre of the foot where the glass maker has used his shears to literally cut the unwanted glass from the foot.
On very rare occasions, if you're lucky, you may see the faint outline -ONE THE TOP OF THE FOOT - where the gadget was used to hold the glass during the final finishing stages of fire polishing etc. -  the gadget was used during the last quarter of the C19 and probably a decade or two into the C20.
Can you see horizontal tooling marks on the bowl - the upper half especially - where the shape of the bowl was formed by the worker - and if you look carefully can you see a faint almost blip like feature on the rim of the glass.                This is created when the glass worker cuts the rim with his shears to form the final, even, rim shape of the bowl - where he starts, and finishes this process, a tiny irregularity is formed on the rim - you may feel this perhaps better than seeing it, sometimes.
Obviously, if you have a piece of lead glass then you will know immediately by the ring when flicked.
 
Small specks of dirt or bubbles in the glass can help to determine if old, but good modern copies can be deceptive, and a lot of knowledge if gained through simple experience and handling of glass.             Visit antiques shops and handle their drinking glasses (carefully of course) and once you've gained some experience you'll be surprised at how many alleged old glasses you can find that were made much later than the ticket says

[Sandpiper]

Thanks again Paul, good advice. I've now been told by a very good source that these were made by Simon Pearce. sometime since the 70s.

[Paul S.]

glad you have a result.            If you can remember for the next time you post drinking glasses, it's often helpful when trying to date etc., to post a picture of the underside of the foot............    sometimes this can tell us more than any other part of the glass.             Assume your information didn't come from a GMB member?

In the light of this information, perhaps the Mods. may now wish to revise the subject heading

[Paul S.]

not wishing to diminish a lifetime's habit for being contentious  ................

this thread is a good example of how beginners and some not so beginners are confused as to the provenance/attribution/age of some glass designs, especially older drinking glasses which can be a minefield at the best of times, and this is compounded as we know only too well by the added difficult of screen only images.
Personally, I disagree with the sort of copying that provides immediate confusion as to 'is it old or not'  -  if a glass maker is going to produce such pieces there should be an obvious and easy way of determining that a piece is modern.         When such obviousness isn't apparent it's a God-send to life's fraudsters, let alone the honest amongst us who are simply confused and bewildered, and it's not difficult to imagine these appearing on ebay as 'old' drinking glasses.
On the assumption that the OP's glasses are by the maker they suggest, then purchased new these are not cheap glasses, and simply as a point of irony it would in fact probably be cheaper to go and buy the real thing than a modern copy that lacks the interest etc. of a genuine antique.
Pub and tavern drinking glasses from the C19 can be found at most antiques and many auction locations for sums of money less than what it appears these are priced at new.            I appreciate of course that the Op may well have bought these as pre-owned glasses, and therefore not at full retail prices.

Of course, it may be that there is some defining feature on the glasses in question, added by the maker, to show that these are in fact modern and not antique, and it would be interesting to know if this is the case.          An example of this sort of added feature is the stylus/dremel addition on the blue glass produced in recent years by the Bristol Blue company in the U.K., where copies of C18/C19 Bristol blue glass designs have been produced.

Drinking glasses from as recent a time as  "since the 1970s" would not normally be expected to show the sort of wear as suggested by the OP  in the comment   ..............  "There is a fair amount of wear under the foot so maybe they're older than I thought"  -  perhaps they were owned by some heavy drinkers.
Yesterday, I bought a Davidson CRYSTOLAC tumbler dating to the mid 1940s (the dot method etc. of dating), and I doubt by the sound of it my tumbler has as much wear as these more modern goblets.

So, it you've nothing else to do today, expound your thoughts and annoy anyone you care to.......   anyway, I'm now out for the day

[KevinH]

It's one of a set of 6 I've just bought. They're about 4 inches high,very heavy and quite variable in shape. They have rough pontils that often seem to be in the form of 4 spots

Sandpiper, could you please provide some more photos.

It would be good to see the glass you have shown photographed in daylight against both a plain white and a plain dark background as that may help to show the true colour / clarity.

Also, you say that the six are "variable in shape". Photos of each would be useful.

And photos of the underside of the feet would show the type and extent of the wear marks and also the finishing marks.

Current Simon Pearce items, as per the company website, seem to be good quality "crsytal" and the feet all seem to thinner than on your glass shown here. Perhaps the "since 1970s" items were different? I guess you could check with Simon Pearce for confirmation.

[brucebanner]

Foot wear is not reliable in dating any piece of glass.

Its a combination of use, storage, appearance and weight that will wear a base out.

In the first pic all 5 are pretty much flat base with no wear at all, one is dated 1897 and i reckon 130 years between them, second pick shows two vases dated 1998, the heavier has no wear and the lighter is starting to wear.