Topic: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled

[flying free]

Can anyone give me some more information on this piece please?
I'm not up for buying it, it isn't mine on sale, but I am interested in where it might have been made and where it might have been enamelled.
I'm researching something else where the enamelling has some similarities in style.

Thank you for any thoughts.
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Antique-Victorian-Forget-Me-Not-Amber-Glass-Tankard-c-1860-/222398815486?hash=item33c8009cfe:g:IRkAAOSwAYtWPeQ5

m

[Paul S.]

hello m.         I'd imagine it would be the same answer to both questions.                  Apparently the forget-me-not carries masses of historical and folk lore related baggage  -  did you know for example that it's the state adopted flower of Alaska.     

Can't imagine it would be C18 Georgian despite the rather obvious 'Georgian baluster shape'  -  I think the enamelled decoration shouts Victorian, but doubt that you'll really pin this one down, and potentially from several sources in 'Europe'.

sorry to be unhelpful.

[flying free]

 thanks -  let's hope it's not Alaskan
Can't imagine there's a whole load of information out there on that.

[LEGSY]

Hi There,
Just browsing the super highway and I think I have a near match for your tankard above, If I could I would link to it but not Very pc friendly sorry. If you log onto fieldings auctioneers and search for there centuries of glass auction they held in 2014 on the 8th march  there is a blue jug in that auction very similar with the same enamel? decoration...and shape.

[flying free]

Thank you for that - there are two in there both of which have some similarities in some ways with the piece I am researching.
Enough for me to be even more sure of the date of mine now which is helpful.
Thanks again - very grateful.

m

[Paul S.]

that's a very interesting find and a good comparison............

the obvious differences  i.e. the opaque glass as opposed to semi-transparent - plus the gilded text within the cartouche - may well indicate early C19/Regency.         
Generally the difference between early and later C19 enamelled glass is this difference between the body colours - the later Victorians turning out reams of green and brown transparent pieces with much plain white decoration - the Mary Gregory pieces for example - as opposed to the earlier opaque bodies.
A lot of fairly cheap C19 pieces though did often have poor quality very thin gilding on rims etc.
The linked shape is close although not exact.


We've no idea from the link what the original provenance of the 'Glass Circle' example was - you might email Fieldings and see if you can find out more...........   is it me, or does the hammer price appear low for such an item??             

[flying free]

yes ...but that might be the market at the time.  And also .. are tankards particularly collectable?  There are not many of them around.

I am now 99.9% sure that mine is 1820-1830 and where it comes from .
And it's not a tankard.

I don't know anything about Newcastle glass but those pieces look Bohemian to me. (although I do wonder about the amber transparent tankard ... I don't see amber Bohemian glass from that period bizarrely)
 However ... I think the time period at least for the amber tankard is what I have suggested above.
There is a reason for my thoughts.  But don't want to put mine on the board yet.

Yes, there were plenty of Bohemian transparent glass pieces with all white enamelling in leaves and Mary Gregory style.  But there are differences.
Certainly on mine there is another specific in terms of the enamelling (and mine is not all white).

And obviously I could be totally wrong and it could be 50years later than I'm suggesting.
But I don't think so at the moment.

m

[Paul S.]

then we shall have to wait with baited breath to see exactly what it is that you have m.

your comments m        ................  "I don't know anything about Newcastle glass but those pieces look Bohemian to me. (although I do wonder about the amber transparent tankard ... I don't see amber Bohemian glass from that period bizarrely)
 However ... I think the time period at least for the amber tankard is what I have suggested above."

have me a little confused...........             are you saying that you do see the amber tankard as 1820 - 1830 (as you suggested above) ??

and don't forget - we shall need excruciatingly impeccable and irrefutable provenance for your date assertion.

[flying free]

yes I do think the amber tankard 'could' date to around 1830.  Is there a particular reason why it would not though? certainly I don't think the 1860 date it's given is out of the question.  Is it though? Maybe the colours in the enamelling might date it a bit later?
But I don't know where it hails from.  Germany? 
There's also this example
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rare-White-Enamelled-Georgian-Bristol-Blue-Glass-Decanter-Antique-c1790/311797518872?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3Ded58726c189d4c6bacf793ff9ac0e546%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D222398815486

I'm 99.9% sure mine does date to 1820-1830.  It fits on five counts, but there are two small things holding me back on it.
Now either those things are because I have my date wrong, which is a possibility of course, or because it is extremely rare (which I think it is ... but of course it could be rare and made later in the 19th which was my first thought on it before I had a good look at it and through my books)

I don't know anything about transparent dark blue Georgian glass let alone enamelled versions.

And my evidence for my thoughts will indeed, be impeccable as far as it exists     but of course open to be challenged with any new evidence from anyone else which would be welcomed  .

m

[flying free]

Paul see my reply above and
with reference the opaque blue tankard in the Fieldings sale 8th March 2014, and the exhibition it was in at the V&A
this is the blurb for the accompanying book:
http://www.glasscircle.org/Publications/Catalogues.html

'72 pages.
29 B & W plates. 7 ½  x 9 ¾ inches

383 exhibits from the Ashmolean, Bristol, Fitzwilliam and Victoria and Albert Musuems and 59 private collections.

Introduction by R J Charleston.

242 exhibits were British glasses of the traditional collectors period of the time (1675-1800) the remainder stretched from Roman, via Bohemia and France to Laurence Whistler glass.'


The Fieldings listing says of that same piece (Lot 63):
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/104561

'A late Georgian mug, possibly Newcastle, of footed baluster form with everted rim and applied loop handle, gilt and enamel decorated with a cartouche panel reading 'Forget me not' surrounded by flowers and foliage over a pale blue ground, height 11cm. Provenance - This mug was exhibited in the Circle of Glass Collectors Commemorative exhibition in 1962 held at the Victorian and Albert Museum.'