Topic: Rare 1840s Baccarat uranium glass becher -show and tell Launay Hautin 1841

[flying free]

Neil, on the question of the numbering in the catalogue, did you mean the 1/100 for example?
I wonder if it denotes that is the first time the shape and design has appeared in the catalogue, or... going back to the Launay Hautin catalogue, whether it indicates it only appears in specific sizes ... i.e. a size chart is missing for the catalogue.
There is a size chart on the front of the LH catalogues for example.

m

[Sid]

In France glasses from this period and style, footed or not, are often presented as 'vase à violettes'.

Anne - do you mean that manufacturer/wholesale catalogues listed these as "vase a violettes" or that current practice of the antique trade is to label these as such?

Thanks

Sid

[Sid]

A few notes for thought:

If Bernard was still with us he would be reminding us right around now that we should be measuring in the units that would have been used by the manufacturer.  In other words, inches and ounces for UK made products and millimeters and milliliters for Continental. I miss that man!

My personal experience with manufacturer catalogs is that they are generally accurate with regards to proportions.  Some wholesalers are very good and some not so good.  The ones that are not so good are usually easy to tell though - details are soft or missing and proportions are all off.

Something I like to do when faced with multiple choices is to photograph the glass object at the same angle as the catalogue, then photo-shop it over the catalog image (1/2 and 1/2) to see if all the features line up.  If they do, then you have a good match.

Sid

[Anne Tique]

Anne - do you mean that manufacturer/wholesale catalogues listed these as "vase a violettes" or that current practice of the antique trade is to label these as such?

Thanks

Sid

No, nothing official Sid, it's just something that sneaked in with time, whether people confuse them with drinking glasses because they're a bit bigger and chunkier, or whether people are actually using them for violet flowers, I don't know and it doesn't really matter, but that's what they're called sometimes anyway.

[flying free]

Thanks Sid.
Bernard is the reason I put both ml and oz  and same in mm and inches

Rather unfortunately mine measures both 1/4pt  and 175ml in capacity.  Which doesn't really give an indication of which might be right (imperial v metric).

If I'm honest, I am happy with the shape as a match for the Launay Hautin but the height of the base rim where the arches are is slightly off in that it is slightly too high.

I honestly don't believe it is a match to the PV or the MW.

[krsilber]

What a lovely piece and an interesting mystery.  The glass is gorgeous. 

I agree with Sid that such drawings are amazingly well-proportioned, capturing the shape even in simple line drawings.  They are often more useful than photos. 

I agree that the becher looks more like Baccarat than like the other two.  More than that it's hard to tell from a photo, but it seems like the teardrops in the Baccarat drawing are shaped differently.  It looks like they are longer, and the horseshoes on the bottom look a little different, too.  Easier for you to tell with it in hand.  Pattern details may also be harder to represent with line drawings when what is raised is not clearly defined.

I wonder if they ever reworked the molds, and that made them slightly different from the drawings.   Or mold sharing, with each company making the proportions just a little different?  I don't think that's what was done in this case, I'm just hypothesizing generally. 

[flying free]

Kristi agree
'... it seems like the teardrops in the Baccarat drawing are shaped differently.  It looks like they are longer, and the horseshoes on the bottom look a little different, too.'

Having said that it's difficult to replicate in a drawing, which bits are the raised surfaces therefore looking narrower and reflecting the light and then also the bits that are the bevelled edges of the raised teardrops if you see what I mean.  I'm sure you do.

Even despite that though, I don't think it's an exact match because of the height of the 'ridge' where the bottom bit with horseshoe design starts.  Mine starts slightly higher up the becher than the Launay Hautin drawing.

So it's possibly in query anyway it being Baccarat. 

With regards the age.  I am pretty sure that whilst designs were repeated, there were 'fashions' for these things.  Perhaps not as short as a year of course, but definitely a 'period'.   Even with Bohemian bechers, the underside base changed over a decade and the shape changed - subliminally in some instances but it did.  It's difficult because Bohemian bechers (in that type of style i.e biedermeier - not necessarily that design) have been produced from early 1800s up to now.  But generally you can make a good guess as to era or thereabouts because of certain aspects of the glass.  More difficult with a pressed/mold blown piece with no decorative features or anything on the base. Although of course, there will always be something that was reproduced in a style or similar with no defining features that help identify it as a much later period, which can stymie the id.

I think this is 1840s and may be up to 1850s but it certainly fits the 1840s.  The base is the same as those on the Launay Hautin depictions as well.  In fact the design reminds me most of Lithyalin/Steinglas/hyalith bechers and the one I've seen in a similar tulip shape as well as the ones I've seen with raised 'lenses' all appear around the 1835 mark:
Examples could probably be found for any era of course, but generally that is the era they date to:-

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/89/98/a4/8998a4feb27aadf4f53b3f97117120ec.jpg

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/kataloge/online-kataloge/196-i-europaeisches-glas-studioglass.html?kategorie=17&artikel=13052&L=&cHash=dd4e61efdc

example of shape above
raised lens examples here

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/dr-fischer/catalogue-id-srdrf10001/lot-f8728908-8ad0-4cb2-a067-a3fc016ace8f

http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/assets/glas-agatin-dose_gr1.jpg

All dating to c.1835 ish.
I've not time to try and find more that have similar designs but there are plenty.

I'm curious about why it has that particular odd glass mark on the inside of the indented base.

m

I will keep looking.  I'm sure it's not MW or PV.  And I'll just keep Baccarat on the back burner for now.

[Sid]

Thank you, Anne

[flying free]

I need to do a bit more research on this but I have been aware that some footed goblets in a similar design to this becher, and similar to those I think I previously pointed out in the Launay Hautin catalogue, were produced in Russia.
Here is a green marked version but they are not uranium glass.
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/glass/russian-hexagonal-green-glass-water-goblets/id-f_4455263/#0

I wonder if they also produced tumblers/bechers?
I'll add if I find anything further.

Thread and links here about the goblet

http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-3w-allen-pokal-russ.pdf
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6130.msg52247.html#msg52247

Obviously mine is not marked in any way.  But just adding in case it becomes relevant somehow in future.
Those in the link are uranium glass but a much more yellow version than mine.

m

[flying free]

I've just bought another one of these.

Mine is exactly 10cm in height and 7.9cm in diameter at rim.

The new one is the same rim diameter (owner says 3" so am guessing probably the same)
but says the height is 4 1/2" tall.  So unless she's made a typo  I think it will be taller than mine - mine would measure 3 7/8" tall in imperial.

I am pretty sure it's exactly the same pattern design but have no idea if it's uranium glass. I will photograph them both together when it arrives.

m