Topic: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849

[Paul S.]

   no objection in asking Judith Crouch for some more help  -  will let you know the lady's reply as and when.

[flying free]

Thank you Paul 

[flying free]

Re Kev's earlier comment in reply #120 http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367687.html#msg367687
about Drayton's silver patent using grape and silver nitrate and if it had been patented in England as well as in the USA:

I don't know any more about whether it was patented in England but having researched silvered glass in quite some depth last year before I lost my research,I remembered something - the silvering of glass was of particular importance to telescopes.


I have found this book published in 2013 by Springer and written by Neil English, Classic Telescopes A guide to Collecting, Restoring and Using Telescopes -
Click here to view

On page 133 under the heading 'From Speculum to Glass' at the start of that chapter there is some relevant wording which might help.  It does appear from that wording that Drayton's patent for silvering was not well known elsewhere prior to the Exhibition 1851, and in the world of telescopes was not successfully done by someone else for telescope mirrors until 1856 by the German astronomer Karl Steinheil.


iirc, a patent for silvering glass was not given until 1855 to Thomas Leighton of New England Glass Company in America -
http://www.theglassmuseum.com/mercury.html

Not definitive, but might end up being helpful on when Thomson started, and particularly when he stopped, producing silvered double-walled glass (we know he was silvering single walled glass items before that).


m

[KevinH]

In the 1978 book: Victorian Table Glass and Ornaments, [ISBN 0 214 20551 7] by Barbara Morris (at that time Deputy Keeper of Ceramics at the V&A Museum), chapter 2, pp 31-40 cover "Coloured and Silvered Glass". There is coverage of basic information relating to Thomson / Varnish / Mellish / Lund. There are three plates showing examples of Silvered wares.

The statement, "... probably made by James Powell & Sons of Whitefriars" is given but there is no reference to Tallis's comments for the 1851 Great Exhibition, although that was probably the source of the statement.

The chapter ends with a paragraph covering "Drayton's process ... introduced about 1850". A quote from the Art Journal 1 February 1853 is given, beginning  "... an ingenious mode of silvering glass ...".

What is perhaps new to us here is a company name: Plate 14 on page 33 shows three silvered glass items "acquired in 1851 from the Silvered Glass Company". One item has the "Varnish" plug and the other two have "Thompson's". Location of the items: Conservatoire National des Arts et Mêtiers, Paris

Do we already have a reference to the Silvered Glass Company?

[flying free]

yes, I mentioned it earlier in the thread Kev, it was in the court cases somewhere!


I'll have a quick look back through the thread and check the cases to find it.


Secondly, very interesting that those items are in the Conservatoire National des Arts et Mêtiers, Paris (I will try and find those - I've used a French museum search site before so if I can find it I'll look them up) given Varnish and Mellish went to Paris (two or three times? - I remember Varnish saying he went the first time to register a patent)

m

[flying free]

I thought I had mentioned it - I definitely read it somewhere, and it was called the Patent Silver-glass company iirc, and that can only be in the court cases I'm sure.
I'll check through them.

m

[flying free]

I found it here:

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367632.html#msg367632

It was called the Patent Glass-silvering Company by the Spectator.

I said on the previous post linked above:

'ok, potentially an interesting new piece of information here as well:

The Spectator reported the court case from 1851 in their issue 6 December 1851:
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/6th-december-1851/2/alttrofolto

'At the Criminal Court, on Friday, Thomas Robert Mellish and James Douglas were convicted of defrauding the Patent Glass-silvering Company, ...  Douglas seven.'

What's interesting about this report is that they used the company name of  the 'Patent Glass-silvering Company'.''



So, in 1851 the Spectator called it the Patent Glass-silvering Company and in 1978 Barbara Morris called it the 'Silvered Glass Company'.

mmm, I  tried to search for the Patent Glass-silvering Company yesterday and didn't find anything, but then I have no idea or access to company records.  Anne is excellent at finding these things and I had yesterday been contemplating asking her to try and check it out.  It might  be worth asking Anne as there is now a second reference to a company 'name'.

I am now wondering where Barbara Morris discovered that 'name'? Possibly from the records of the receipt of the items in the Conservatoire in France?

m

[flying free]

The only collection I know how to search is the Musee d'Orsay (built in 1900 for the Universal Exhibition).
They have a good online site  but I have searched as well as I know how to and can't find anything on there for either of those company names or silvered glass. Obviously not the right search place.


I'll try using the 'Conservatoire National des Arts et Mêtiers, Paris' as a search.

ooh - this is the search link for it:


edited to add - No, sorry I can't work out how to use the search efficiently enough. 
The link is here:

http://cugnot.cnam.fr:8000/SEARCH/BASIS/COLLEC/INTERNET/OBJET/SF

m

[KevinH]

I also tried searching the Conservatoire National des Arts et Mêtiers, using a variety of keywords but failed to get a positive result. I think we need somebody fluent in French who also has an understanding of the item we are looking for.

[flying free]

I think I did get a result Kev but iirc I ended up with 7000 to search through and I just haven't got the time.
It would not reduce the search any further for me.


We might just have to accept this evidence from Barbara Morris' book for now and, if used anywhere, we should state we cannot corroborate it, and should also quote the Spectator article using a slightly different company name, for consistency:

'What is perhaps new to us here is a company name: Plate 14 on page 33 shows three silvered glass items "acquired in 1851 from the Silvered Glass Company". One item has the "Varnish" plug and the other two have "Thompson's". Location of the items: Conservatoire National des Arts et Mêtiers, Paris'

and

'The Spectator reported the court case from 1851
in their issue 6 December 1851:
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/6th-december-1851/2/alttrofolto

'At the Criminal Court, on Friday, Thomas Robert Mellish and James Douglas were convicted of defrauding the Patent Glass-silvering Company, ...  Douglas seven.''


Barbara Morris clearly knew the items had Varnish and Thomson plugs, but somehow she also had information that those in the CNAM were acquired from the 'Silvered Glass Company'.  What we don't know is how she got that information - i.e. was it from the purchase documentation held by the Conservatoire National des Arts et Metiers, from the 1851 acquisition?

She Ms Morris actually uses a different company name to that used in the Spectator article so presumably she hadn't got the name from that. For now, we might have to assume she got the company name from the CNAM paperwork.

(I'm idly wondering, if they went to Paris to register a patent, as Varnish said in the court case that he and Mellish did, then perhaps they 'deposited' some of the evidence of the patented work in the CNAM?
Iirc (and my memory is not briliant at the mo) I have read about CNAM previously to do with French Glass, and I think it might have been the place where new arts were 'lodged' as it were, and was used for those types of acquisitions from what I have read, if I am not confusing it with another organisation which is possible of course).
m