Topic: Clear frog Pate de Verre style cut pin dish

[WhatHo!]

Hi, this charity shop find is stumping me, my thoughts are it might be French? 5"x 3".
It depicts a frog sitting by a pond. The frog is moulded but the rest has but cut.
The pond has ground out and the foliage at the sides has been raised up by cutting deep to the side of it. Base is flat polished.
It is  a really lovely piece, any ideas pls. Tia Wolfie

[WhatHo!]

Any ideas?

[Mosquito]

To me it looks like carved rock crystal (quartz) rather than glass. Looking at the frog's eyes and digits, you can see that it's carved, not moulded.

I wouldn't know where it's from, but a lot of hardstone carvings come fron China: Mexico seems to be another popular source.

[Paul S.]

sorry, no idea as to origin/provenance/age, but as an off the cuff comment I'd have thought that a chunk of 'rough' crystal (quartz), capable of being reduced to this finished size, would have been prohibitively expensive to start with, and even the original 'rock crystal' pieces made in the late C19 were full lead glass, as opposed to quartz.

Regret the pix aren't sharp enough for me to see whether the digits and eyes have been carved as opposed to moulded  -  presumably carved means created on the wheel, then polished  -  if you use the loupe Wolfie, are there remains of any grinding marks on the frog?           The opposite side to the frog appears to show either wear, or some effect to cause a hazy effect - but could be just me.            French seems a reasonable suggestion.

sorry this of no help, but nice piece.   

[Mosquito]

It's certainly carved. The relatively straight cuts on the fingers, the circle of the eye being not exactly circular from being made from a series of short cuts, and the wheel marks on the leaves all show this. There also appear to be some visible internal flaws, such as by the lower edge of the leaf on the side view, which look typical of natural quartz.

Genuine rock crystal carvings (i.e. quartz, not glass) are not uncommon, though they can get pricey depending on size, clarity and quality of cutting. I've seen several Chinese examples supposedly dated to the latter part of the Qing dynasty, and I can find modern pieces in the fancier gift shops here too, though they often don't come cheap...

Can't find a matching example, but here are some other rock crystal pieces for comparison:
http://stallionhillgallery.com/auction/chinese-rock-crystal-carving-of-an-immortal/
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-chinese-rock-crystal-meiren,-boy-and-buffalo-385-c-d1e4b59a1a
http://www.rikoo.com/pro/2101764.html
https://www.bidsquare.com/l/1164/rock-crystal-carving
http://s3.amazonaws.com/bidsquare_assets/images.skinnerinc.com/full-450-849450.jpg
https://www.etsy.com/listing/173684403/quartz-crystal-ganesh-carving-no03

[Paul S.]

thanks Steven  -  do you consider that even top quality quartz pieces might show some inclusions, such that we might tell this material apart from glass?     Looking at the final link - stunning piece by the way - the photo quality is good, and in my opinion shows what to me is how the difference between the two materials might appear i.e. quartz has a very slight dull shade that looks a tad dirty, possibly.

[Mosquito]

I'm no great expert in quartz, but certainly it does often contain inclusions. These tend to look different from inclusions in glass, probably because of the natural rock's crystal structure. The dirty appearance may be from impurities or perhaps from wear and grime. Also, there shouldn't be spherical bubbles in quartz given the way that the natural crystal is formed.

There may be other ways of differentiating between the materials too: quartz should be harder than glass, but scratch testing is not ideal given that it can cause damage.

[Paul S.]

in theory glass appears to be a couple of compartments down from quartz, on a comparative hardness scale  - perhaps Wolfie might test the underside of his piece

[WhatHo!]

Sorry I have just noticed all these reply's!! I have good look at it again tomrw, thanks so much for your input.