Topic: Victorian Glass Vase Raspberry Pontil S&W Rockingham / Thomas Webb OR Walsh

[Greg.]

Thanks all.

Thanks M for looking over those Manley pieces.

Here's a link to the Webb Argentine item for anyone wishing to view it on Pintrest:
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/434597432784421133/?lp=true

The Stuart examples with scroll feet and raspberry prunts are interesting, although I also haven't seen one which uses a similar foil decor. - S&W over the years also seem to have used both scroll feet and raspberry prunts, although I still haven't seen an example that uses both of these features along with a foil decor!

I will have look into Thomas Webb, unfortunately I don't have the Guliver book.

Just to add, I did also see a few references to Rockingham on Dilwyn Heir's website, under the members only section.....
http://antiquestourbridgeglass.co.uk/?s=rockingham

[KevinH]

Greg's link to the "Thomas Webb Argentine" vase takes me to a Pinterest sign in overlay.

For other folk, like me, who are also not "members" of Pinterest, the folliwing link goes straight to the actual item:
Direct Link to Thomas Webb Aregentine vase

[Helen W.]

Those Pinterest and Facebook 'join us or push off' notices are really annoying. For those who don't know, one can reduce their size enough to read most of the web page underneath by holding keys Ctrl and - (hyphen). This works on a laptop or PC, but I don't know about smartphones. At all. 

I really was bleary-eyed the other day and forgot to check the list of colour names in Williams Thomas. It's a useful reminder of the differences between the company's official colour names and those that gradually come into use among glass enthusiasts.

[flying free]

...

I really was bleary-eyed the other day and forgot to check the list of colour names in Williams Thomas. It's a useful reminder of the differences between the company's official colour names and those that gradually come into use among glass enthusiasts.

It is but is it complete?

If it is complete -  and Rockingham doesn't appear on that list - then is Rockingham a reference to silver plated deposit decor from S&W? 
And if it is, then did someone accidentally add the word Ware to the Rockingham Ware in the description of the pattern number that Charles quoted in his book?
Or ... did S&W ( internally in the company) refer to their range of items which had silver deposits on the outside of them (silver deposits put on by S&W in house I mean), as 'Rockingham Ware'?   And Charles has assumed it meant a form of China but in fact it was S&W's name for their range of those items.

Greg, you say Dilwyn Hier's site references and shows three pieces with the work Rockingham as a descriptor. I can't see them.  Can anyone? Are they just cased in a reddy brown or browny red glass - meaning they are saying Rockingham is a name for that glass colour?

[Helen W.]

If it is complete -  and Rockingham doesn't appear on that list - then is Rockingham a reference to silver plated deposit decor from S&W?
And if it is, then did someone accidentally add the word Ware to the Rockingham Ware in the description of the pattern number that Charles quoted in his book?
Or ... did S&W ( internally in the company) refer to their range of items which had silver deposits on the outside of them (silver deposits put on by S&W in house I mean), as 'Rockingham Ware'?   And Charles has assumed it meant a form of China but in fact it was S&W's name for their range of those items.

Good points. Over such a long period of time there's a danger of minor misunderstandings or "terminological inexactitude" (now, which politician was it who coined that phrase?  ) compounding one another, and resulting in the kind of head-scratching we have in this discussion. 

[flying free]

I have joined the Dilwyn Hier site and found an example where Rockingham is actually noted as a  brown glass (ref pattern number 11272 book 12.)

So ... the Williams Thomas book does not list all their colour names then I guess?

And secondly whilst Rockingham can be used to describe the browny reddy or reddy browny colour glass from S&W (and the only way of knowing whether an item was actually made using their recipe for Rockingham rather than their recipe for any other dark amber/browny glass from them would be to check the pattern books), I guess it can't be used as a descriptor of those items that have silver foil in them unless they can be found in the pattern books,because other makes could have used a browny amber or reddy brown glass and have used it over foil  - i.e. Webb Argentine example.

And btw, from the description and colour example of the piece they show, it is possible that the Bonhams example is an example of a specific named range which used a browny reddy glass (their S&W Rockingham) over ruby.  That combination is shown  I believe in the colour plate on the site as I said above, on a different piece where they show the pattern book and name the pattern number and give the name of the range.

So Manley was right to describe it as Rockingham meaning the colour. Correction - Rockingham was a reddy brown colour from Stevens and Williams so Manley was not right to describe it as Rockingham meaning the colour until he absolutely knew it came from S&W and has a pattern id to back it up

But we cannot suppose that items with a reddy brown casing over foil internal layer are a range called 'Rockingham' until we have pattern id proof that those foil decors came from S&W or that those shapes are conclusively and only from S&W. correction - because Rockingham was a reddy brown colour that came from STevens and Williams there would not be a 'range' called 'Rockingham'

[flying free]

And I am currently looking at a bowl on the site that has the encased foil with amber casing in this instance,with applied fish or lizards (one at either end) and it has a lozenge for Webb.  I would say that it has that odd striped appearance as you describe on your vase Kev and in a similar way to that vase item 93 in Manley.

I am going to stick my neck out again and insist that we look at Webb  and that Manley might have been incorrect in his supposition that it was Stevens and Williams 

I'm also going to say that he was definitely wrong about what he says re item no 64, a foil encased bowl with applied lizards which he describes as crystal over pale amethyst (looks like dark amethyst to me) 'with silver flecks (aventurine)', which again looks like silver leaf or foil to me or mica but not aventurine - (ref: Antique Stourbridge Glass .co.uk site under Thomas Webb).  And that it's not designed by Frederick Carder as Manley implies.



Also,I think the pieces with splotches over foil are a 'decor range' and the pieces which have a perceived striped effect as in Kev's vase and a fish or applied lizard bowl I've seen on the Hier site (a Thomas Webb piece) are a different 'range'. 

Also one more observation - the bowl Greg shows looks quite refined in it's making.  The links he gives to the Fieldings site to similar decor items ... well those items look 'clunky' to me. It's odd.  I think they look like the same decor, but they look like less refined designs/making than the bowl Greg shows don't they? Almost as though they come from a different period or are meant to represent designs from a different time, whereas Greg's bowl looks as though it belongs in the 1880s/1890s when those triangular bowl with or without applied lizards appear to have been the rage -  or is it just me?


m

[flying free]

see my previous replies
and also a link to a lizard bowl which has the encased foil and perceived stripes like Kev's vase - right here on our site

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37302.msg204119.html#msg204119

[flying free]

I have found the link to the 'Argentine' bowl on the blackcountryhistory.org collection search site.

It is listed as 'Webb's Argentine possibly' and is described as

'Amber and ruby vase decorated with silver foil
Description: Vase, amber and ruby glass, bulbous shape body, decorated with silver foil pattern between the two layers, short neck and flared rim, on small foot.
Dimensions: Height 7.0cm
Credit Line: Michael and Peggy Parkington Bequest'

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH2970/


There is also one vase with a Rockingham colour - it's over an opaque cream glass (their Ivory) so it is perceived as being very brown because of that I would think:
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH2754/
Object number BH2754

[flying free]

Kev here is another lizard bowl with the foil and perceived stripes on it.

They say it is thought to be made by Webb but they go on to say Stevens and Williams made similar.  I don't believe they did from what I have read on the Antique Stourbridge glass site.  I think their comment about S&W is misleading and there is no reference source for either assertion.

http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/estoz4.html