Topic: Victorian Glass Vase Raspberry Pontil S&W Rockingham / Thomas Webb OR Walsh

[flying free]

Mr Gulliver did have access to those pattern books, I remember asking him how he had identified a particular vase and it was from those books. How complete the books were? Not a clue.

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47637.msg272206.html#msg272206

see Nigel's comments on this thread linked.

[flying free]

Hi All,

Would welcome any thoughts on this English Victorian vase.

The vase has a purple/pink ground, silver foil inclusions and a mottled inky blue colouring. Clear glass casing.

3 applied clear glass scroll feet, the pontil mark has been covered with a clear raspberry prunt.

Height: 8.5cm
Diameter 12cm
Weight: 485 grams

I have seen similar although not exact pieces described as S&W Rockingham also Thomas Webb and Walsh seem to crop up!

Any thoughts would very much be appreciated.

Thanks,
Greg

Just going back to the beginning again




Source: Gulliver Victorian Decorative Glass 1850-1914.

Feet:
- Page 64 and page 65 shows the scrolled feet of two items
 one red item at the bottom of page 64.  This is described as 'Fine, shell ribbed foot ...'  it's different to the one on page 65
and one blue item at the top of page 65 which is described as 'Bold, shell ribbed foot'
Both from Stuart & Sons. 
They look like the scroll feet on Greg's bowl (with the blue one I think being comparable) but without having the bowl to hand it's difficult to be accurate.


 Page 177 bottom of page shows a Stuart pulled up festoon trailed vase with the feet for a different view.  This also has a raspberry prunt covering the pontil mark. and others on page 174.

Prunts:
- Page 52 a number of prunts are shown.  The prunt on Greg's piece looks like the two applied raspberries applied to base of Stuart items bottom left hand of page.
- There are other makers who used raspberry prunts and there are a number shown in the book.  I don't think they match Greg's vase.
Examples can be seen on page 52 and on other pages.

- Page 64 shows a vase with a registered design mark 238052 recorded by Hodgetts, Richardson & Son which also has an applied raspberry prunt that could look similar but this looks to have a back pad around it.

Decor:
- page 169 there appears to be a decor quite similar to Greg's (spots over silver foil ) which is identified as Thomas Webb.  It has a pontil mark covered with a prunt impressed with a Registered Diamond mark. The registered Diamond mark incorporates the date code for November 11, 1882.The reg mark I think applies to the six-way shallow crimp on the bowl.  Gulliver says 'The style of the crimp is in the form on Registered Design No. 390103 dated November 11,1882.
The feet are not the same as Greg's bowl.
The decor on that Webb bowl appears to have turquoise and red spots but that could be photography.  The decor looks somewhat similar to this bowl however I think the blue is more turquoise:
https://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/120824


Obviously I'm giving examples from one book however from what I can see, all the examples that have similar feet or prunts appear to be from Stuart.
The decor that might be a similar idea to Greg's bowl on  169 which is a Thomas Webb bowl.

[flying free]

I prefix this by saying I've no idea about ribs and whether they can help as a deciding factor on maker, but there is a Stuart vase in Gulliver (Victorian Decorative Glass) page 172 which is red with festoon scrolled rigaree plus prunts on the rigaree and plus three shell feet, which is quote 'formed from a mould with twelve shallow projecting ribs, and has the pontil mark covered by a clear glass raspberry prunt'

Regarding John's blue over silver striped bowl with the large polished pontil mark and twelve ribs:

Gulliver - page 170 top of page, there is a bowl with blue stripes over silver foil and lizards. Blue not the same as yours. Also formed from 12 shallow projecting ribs.
Page 229 no id but two salts
No id.
Could the 12 ribs could help as one element  but not a deciding factor perhaps.

[flying free]

Long discussion here of a lizard vase with I think 12 ribs and the foil decor.  Looking more closely at the OP's bowl it seems to have enamelled mouth on the lizards and certainly applied red eyes and also some immaculate gilding along the lizards back (not sponged gilding, but a neat purposeful gilded pattern):
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37302.msg204119.html#msg204119

[flying free]

I've just been through the entire Black Country History online collection of glass (538 pieces) . 
https://www.blackcountryhistory.org/collections/search/page/53/?s=glass+vase&qa%5Bkeyword_reference_type%5D=0&qa%5Bpartner%5D&qa%5Btitle%5D&qa%5Bperson%5D&qa%5Bplace%5D&qa%5Bsubject%5D&qa%5Bformat%5D&qa%5Bidentifier%5D&qa%5Bdate_from%5D&qa%5Bdate_to%5D&cbav=2&cbadvsearchquery

Most have photographs.  Interestingly, they have exactly no pieces with applied lizards or in the foil technique apart from one listed as 'possibly Webb's Argentine'
https://www.blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH2970

and perhaps another 4/5  Stevens & Williams Silveria pieces.

There are some without photographs.  I didn't go through those to check.  I will do later.

m

[flying free]

Just going back to the beginning again




Source: Gulliver Victorian Decorative Glass 1850-1914.

Feet:
- Page 64 and page 65 ...

...
 Page 177 bottom of page shows a Stuart pulled up festoon trailed vase with the feet for a different view.  This also has a raspberry prunt covering the pontil mark. and others on page 174.

 
...

The bowl I refer to on page 177 identified as Stuart in Gulliver, with the scroll feet and raspberry prunt on the pontil , is the same as the bowl sold here as Stevens and Williams apart from the rim being different.  The rim on page 177 is crimped inwards (like a rose bowl) in an 8 way crimp.
The decor, the colours, the feet and the fact it has a raspberry pontil mark referred to in Gulliver,  are the same.
I think it is very likely that this Fieldings bowl is a Stuart bowl:
https://auctions.fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/catalogue/lot/48fe2a53d60ae3f630bd962be515378f/2962609b087211c86f30dd0772610b3a/antiques-interiors-a-two-day-sale-lot-893/

[flying free]

- and here we have another confusing example. The decor and colours look similar to Greg's bowl. Greg linked to it earlier in the thread (first page)
 It has been sold as 'Stevens and Williams Rockingham pattern' vase.
I think previously on this thread we discussed what 'Rockingham' was in some detail and it was decided it was a colour not a decor or 'pattern'.

https://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/120778

This was also linked to by Greg earlier:
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/958469735/stevens-williams-rockingham-pattern-vase?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details
It is a very similar decor to a vase in Black Country History collection:
https://www.blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH2970

I can't remember if I've commented on these before but there doesn't appear to be a definitive identification of these pieces and there appears to be some confusion.
Black Country History collection says possibly Webb's Argentine (is that Webb Corbett? ) for a vase that has a very similar decor to one in Etsy, which is  the same design and shape as one sold by Fieldings ... as Stevens and Williams in a 'Rockingham pattern', a pattern which I don't think exists. And that one seems to be a similar decor to Greg's bowl? 
But perhaps not the same?  Greg's bowl appears to be more of a deeper pink internal base colour on my screen and the splotches are a less visible more refined look.



- Whilst the shell feet and prunt on Greg's bowl may not on their own be deciding factors, I think they look remarkably like pieces which have been formally identified as from Stuart.  Enough for Stuart to be explored as a possible maker for Greg's bowl.



- As I showed above, Fieldings in 2023 sold a bowl as Stevens and Williams which I think is a Stuart bowl as it is so similar to a bowl in Gulliver identified as Stuart.

Somewhere on here I remember there being discussion over a tazza that was thought to be S&W I think (Bernard owned it) and Gulliver identified it as Stuart.

Also somewhere on here there is a discussion on a vase I called 'Barbe's daughter' which was apparently Thomas Webb, but Bernard and I both think that was actually a Stuart vase:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55750.msg359683.html#msg359683

There may be a possibility that Stuart decors are still to be identified. i.e. ones which have internal foil decoration.

m

[glassobsessed]

Is Mervyn Gulliver contactable? He might have an opinion on these foiled items. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of his book at present so can't comment in that regard.

The handled vases with foil and multicolour spots (often described as Rockingham) might well be related to my flask from a while back:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62750.0.html

[flying free]

I don't know if he is contactable but he is quite precise in the book in my opinion.  If there is no evidence source then the item is shown and described without pre-amble or supposition.
The foiled lizard vase shown as I discussed earlier, from Webb,  has a reg design mark for the date of Webb's 6 way crimped design on the rim.  That one is designated Webb.  The others have no identification.

[flying free]

1) and just to add- it is possible that this bowl here:
https://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/467337/stevens-williams-rockingham-bowl-applied-lizards-c1890

is the actual bowl shown in Gulliver page 170 with no identification. 

The angle of the photograph doesn't allow it to be seen exactly in a comparable position to the photograph in the book, however it looks exactly the same to me. 

The size given is very slightly different but I think they could be one and the same bowl.  - so perhaps just one example of this lizard bowl.


2) And another also possible duplicate ? of the Webb 6 crimped bowl shown in Gulliver page 169 here on the GMB:

https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?album=763&pos=3645
Note the fact the lizard has arms (?no idea about fauna or what they might be called - front limbs?) and hands, not just pad hands.

https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?album=763&pos=3646

It's not possible to see the same angle but it could be that this one IS different as I can only spot two spines on the right hand lizard where there is 3 showing visibly in Gulliver.


3) There are lots of registered designs in the back of the book with pictorials to accompany the design number.  I couldn't spot any for lizards or fish from any maker.



That is not to say that information and identification hasn't moved on and that items unidentified in the book 'Victorian Decorative Glass, British Designs, 1850-1914, Gulliver' remain unidentified.  On page 199 is a tazza in the same decor as Bernard's piece I alluded to above.  It has no identification in the book but was subsequently identified by M. Gulliver directly to Bernard as Stuart pattern 3890 dated 1882.  Information on this is on the GMB from Bernard 19 Nov 2012.



m