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Author Topic: Georgian? Cut crystal plate  (Read 1092 times)

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Offline catshome

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Georgian? Cut crystal plate
« on: September 23, 2019, 04:55:54 PM »
Sadly I have limited experience of Georgian glass, but Georgian was the first thing that came to mind given the cutting - particularly the scalloped rim - and the thickness of the glass which is a shade over a quarter inch thick.  Plate is 7.5" diameter, and has a slightly concave center to the base - not the usual round polished pontil, possibly due to the cutting around it. It's the colour that doesn't feel quite right - a faint peachy hue, rather than a greyish hue.  So I thought I'd ask the GMB.

I did find a very similar plate on ebay, described as 1830 with Origin given as "Cork Ireland", but no information given to support the attribution.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Antique-Georgian-Wheel-cut-Lead-glass-Fancy-plate-C-1830/333304912205

There do seem to be quite few "Georgian" plates around, so I appreciate its not a rare item, but I thought it would be a good to use it to find out a little more about Georgian glass.  Almost all the images in my antique glass book are black & white.

All thoughts welcome.

Top picture is a good match for the colour.


Cat 😺

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Georgian? Cut crystal plate
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2019, 06:08:34 PM »
Hi - if you want to see cut pieces - with a genuine Cork attribution - then one of the most useful books is probably Phelps Warren's 'Irish Glass' - with the suggestion that it's the second, revised, expanded edition from 1981 that is by far the better volume.
Immediate thoughts are that if the glass is of a faintly peachy or yellow tint then this increases the chance of a Continental origin, rather than Cork, but there are exceptions to every rule, and seeing glass on the screen is no substitute for having the glass in the hand.     But I'd agree with your caution in view of this less than lead-like colour.

To quote Warren (page 216)   ""In both the Waterford and Cork sets of vessels illustrated the diamond motif is the most single conspicuous single cutting device.""            Unfortunately, some of your pix lack contrast, and although we can see most of the cutting details, images with greater contrast are really helpful when discussing cut clear glass.

The world and his wife produced cutting with scalloped rims - no doubt much of it from Ireland - but it's not a feature that can be relied on as a type of cut decoration from which we might say the piece has to be from that part of the world.
I'd be wary of some of the ebay attributions  -  the lady in your link has given a date of c. 1830 for George III - this is an error, and that particular year was in fact the final year of the reign of George IV, who gave way to William IV.           Also hobnails are a cutting style, I thought, that occurred much later.
What if any is the extent of wear - I doubt in view of the colour and thickness that this is lead glass, and so will probably not give a lead glass ring.

I wasn't aware that there were 'quite a few Georgian plates around' - I'd be suspicious of that sort of profusion- but again, to start buying into that period you will need to be savvy about what is or isn't Georgian - and that sort of experience comes only with studying the books, visiting museums  and attending fairs - otherwise we make expensive mistakes.
If as you say, you have limited experience of Georgian glass, then it's easy to make a wrong assumption - you might try sending pix to a museum/V. & A. etc., and they might well be able to help.

Sorry to seem negative, but the genuine old stuff is getting thin on the ground - just be cautious.         I would have thought that all pix - of clear cut glass, in the books - will be b. & w. anyway? :)           This is certainly the case with Phelps Warren (apart from one picture I think), and details and clarity of decoration are fine.

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Offline catshome

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Re: Georgian? Cut crystal plate
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2019, 07:04:51 PM »
Thank you for the detailed reply, Paul.  Just to clarify my interest, I am in the processing of selling all my glass and have a lot of boxes collected over 40+ years.  In trying to identify the rermaining unidentified pieces, I am finding knowledge gaps that I no longer have enough time to fill, and cannot justify adding to my library either.  Finding out about this piece might help me identify others.  You are right, the B&W pics are great for detail, but they didn't help with that peachy hue.  The reference I made was to there being quite a few "Georgian" plates.....and I used the quote marks as that is what they are being described as, rather than that being what they really are, as I wouldn't know if they are or not.

There are only four points of contact on the base......uncut glass ribs at 1, 5, 7, and 11 o'clock on the top picture.  There is quite a bit of wear on two on one side as the plate does not sit completely flat on all four, but wear is apparent on all four.

On the lead content......it's not the thud of glass, or the ring of good crystal, more like an apologetic ting.

Sorry about the pictures.  I'm not sure what's going on, as I used to take really clear, close up pictures.  I will check the settings on the camera, but I'm wondering if it's the change to irfanview for resizing, as I can no longer use my pixlabs programme due to a change in operating system on new laptop.  I will try to get some good shots of the cutting tomorrow.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
Cat 😺

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Georgian? Cut crystal plate
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2019, 09:39:42 PM »
unfortunately, clear cut glass seems always to have had few followers here - shame really, some of the stuff is to die for, but it may well be this very reason of difficulty with attributions and provenance that puts people off collecting the stuff - not helped by the fact that prior to c. 1920s back stamps are really non-existent, and books rather thin on the ground.                 I doubt that there is anything more modern than Phelps Warren, and his volume is for Irish material - it's this perhaps slightly misplaced passion for the 'Age of Exuberance' thing, with images of candle light and the twinkle of lead glass in the drawing rooms that makes the Irish thing so popular, so learning about the stuff really is down to personal effort, books and museums  -  not that you'll be doing that now. :)

Sorry, I overlooked the quotes re your comments about the profusion of 'Georgian' plates.              I tend to imagine that with Irish material there is this appearance whereby the cutting seems to be in profusion, plus the grey/lead colour of the glass  -  I really don't think this one has anything to do with Cork - and remember how keen the Victorians were on copying earlier styles - and then again the passion in the 1920 - 30 period for reproducing Georgian styles.        These last will of course now be around ninety years of age, the sort of length of time for wear to build up, which can create confusion.            IMHO the colour you mention goes against the grain for Irish cut glass.

Photographing clear glass can be difficult  -  the lighting needs to be subdued/muted but adequate, backgrounds need to be the correct shade, and finally a good camera lens is essential.   

I've not noticed a problem with irfanview when re-sizing  -  I also use Picasa when editing for colours/shade/contrast and couldn't live without the thing now.
The only real quality problem I've experienced was when watermarking my pix from Kew - that programme does drop the sharpness off which is a pain, which is why I've ceased watermarking a few of the most recent pix.         If the Trustees or Directors complain I might need to reinstate my watermarks, but the quality will then again be lost.

Best of luck with selling your glass.   


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Offline catshome

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Re: Georgian? Cut crystal plate
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2019, 01:46:21 PM »
Finally managed to get some pictures that might show the cutting in more detail, although they may not have survived resizing!
Cat 😺

"There is very little knowledge that can't be obtained through effort"  -  Mark Cuban

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