Topic: Millefiori cartwheel, Caithness-Whitefriars?

[Ekimp]

Hi, I thought this would be Perthshire or Strathearn but it didn’t seem to match for one reason or another (don’t know much about paperweights). I have found that the centre cane and those in the outer ring and inner ring match those in a Caithness-Whitefriars Star Garden weight that has the Whitefriars monk cane with a 1982 date: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/364369426101580279/

I’m getting confused by what I’ve been reading. If mine is Caithness or Caithness-Whitefriars should it be ground completely flat without the ground concave pontil scar? I wondered about pre Caithness Whitefriars but Whitefriars weights are said to have a ‘button’ on the bottom in addition to the ground concave pontil. I have read why the button is there but is it more subtle than it sounds or is it very obvious?

If this is Whitefriars or Caithness-Whitefriars or just Caithness, shouldn’t it be marked or have the monk cane? I’m sure the canes I’ve mentioned in my weight are a perfect match with the 1982 Caithness-Whitefriars Star Garden weight. Might it be something else, John Deacons? Again, there are no identifying canes and I don’t know if the base would be right?
Getting a bit lost, many thanks for any help.

It is 61mm diameter, 45mm high, with a weight of 247g.

[chopin-liszt]

I'm rather clueless about weights myself, but Caithness would surely be marked?
The concave pontil scar shows striations, Caithness wouldn't leave something like that, unless it was on a second - and they marked their seconds.
Of course, they may have stopped the marking at some time and gone on to use sticky labels.

I did have a Caithness Wfs weight. It had a monk cane (in the base, which was a dark blue ground) and was etched on the base Caithness-Whitefriars, along with the pattern name which I've forgotten.

But in general, Caithness fusses about finishes and marks things.
So I'm leaning away from a Caithness origin.

[keith]

Strathearn, Perthshire maybe ?

[Ekimp]

Thanks both. 
I looked at Strathearn and Perthshire first but read that Strathearn used white ribbons, not coloured and there wasn’t the ‘P’ cane for Perthshire. Also, I don’t think I could find any five point stars in either make (not that I can have looked at them all).  I admit I stopped looking at other makes once I found the match with the Caithness-Whitefriars canes as was going a bit crosseyed. (Even the number of ribs around the five point star cogs is the same).

It hadn’t occurred to me that the striations on the pontil would be substandard for Caithness. I’ve not got any Caithness for comparison but the finish doesn’t look too dissimilar to that on a Whitefriars vase pontil. I think the pontil looks rougher in the photos, or the photos pick up the roughness better. Caithness must be so very fussy, the phrase ‘near enough is good enough’ obviously isn’t in their Quality Manual

[casalibre]

Edinburgh Glass

[Ekimp]

Thanks Casalibre. I did come across Edinburgh crystal but was expecting an ‘E’ cane? I’ve just had another quick look, there don’t seem to be so many examples around, and they look to have ground flat bases rather than a concave pontil. Looks like they were possibly commissioned from Caithness too. I’ll have a better look later in any case.

[chopin-liszt]

Caithness were incredibly strict. It can be really hard to find the flaw in a second. It's often something as small as just a single swirl in the dome.
And every Caithness weight I've seen has a flat polished base. Living near to Caithness means I've seen a lot of them over my life. 
For me, the base rules Caithness out. 

[Ekimp]

Thanks Sue, there seem to be Caithness weights everywhere you look but I’ve only ever seen the lower end ones in person. I thought the base concave pontil might be wrong for Caithness so it’s good to rule one out. I’ll have to look for a Whitefriars weight on my travels to see what that button looks like.

I have a feeling this is going to be something to do with John Deacons. In this thread: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4190.30.html KevinH says (second post on page 4) about the five point star cog canes, similar to the pre Caithness whitefriars canes, being made by John deacons and used in Caithness, Edinburgh, and St Kilda weights. The pictures have gone but they sound like the ones in my weight that match the Caithness-Whitefriars weight I linked to above. But then the pontil doesn’t seem to match any! I’ll have to do more searching, probably missing something.

[Wuff]

First - you are correct: canes look like Caithness canes, but also have been used under different names and by other makers.

Caithness: I don't remember to have seen this weight before (and I have seen thousands of Caithness weights, at least images of them). Also the base finish excludes Caithness in my opinion.

Caithness-Whitefriars, i.e. the Caithness weights in their Whitefriars series, after buying the name: should either have the monk cane with year, or just a monk on its own (not always easy to recognise). Same comment about the base finish.

"Original" Whitefriars: as you write yourself - completely different base.

Edinburgh never made millefiory weights themselves - what shows up frequently as Edinburgh are the series made in 1986 by Caithness in commission. Millefiori weights include an "E" cane, base is flat and marked Edinburgh. A small number of designs only - your weight is not amongst them.

Perthshire: earlier standard millefiori weights did not include the "P-cane ... but to my knowledge these earlier weights had a fire polished base, not concave ground. The actual weights often vary considerably from what you see in the "Complete Guide" - but I would still consider Perthshire very unlikely.

This leaves Peter McDougal and John Deacons, both using this type of canes in their millefiori designs. My "favourite" would be John Deacons - used these canes at least in his J-Glass weights. I have never seen the base, however, so my gut feeling might be wrong.

[Ekimp]

Thanks Wuff, that confirms things nicely.

I’ve not come across Peter McDougal, just had a quick search and they look quite fancy whereas there seem to be more John Deacons examples similar to my weight. I’ll have a better look at them both and see what I can find, thanks.

I had the impression when searching previously that John Deacons weights also have identifying canes or little picture canes in the middle. I see St Kilda was a brand name/range from John Deacons J glass.

It’s at least nice to be able to identify the origins of the canes, if not the whole thing.