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Author Topic: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"  (Read 30704 times)

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #200 on: February 20, 2023, 12:39:54 PM »
So, John Ford at Holyrood Glass works was making uranium glass in 1841. 

His uranium glass is referred to as 'called canary or topaz' in Jill Turnbull's book:
Source:  Jill Turnbull, The Magic and Misery of Glassmaking:  Researching the history of the Scottish Glass Industry
https://booksfromscotland.com/2017/09/magic-misery-glassmaking-scotland/


There were a dozen 'topaz-coloured' finger glasses on the Banquet table.

If the dozen topaz finger glasses  (assuming this means finger bowls) in the list for the banquet were uranium glass they would have needed to have been produced and cut and engraved in 27 days or less, because that is the length of time Davenports were given to produce all the glass and china for the banquet.

Could they have been made at Holyrood Glassworks?  and if so when could they have been made?

1) Could Holyrood Glassworks have made the bowls in the V&A and the Corning in 1837?

- We don't have evidence Holyrood Glassworks was making uranium glass in 1837.  The earliest reference is Leighton's letter in 1839. This is followed up by evidence in Jill Turnbull's book that they were making uranium glass in May 1841.


2) This is a clear cut glass epergne that this information from University of Edinburgh says was made by Holyrood Glass works. 
They say it was made by the Holyrood Flint Glass Company, Edinburgh, between 1840 and 1842, to mark the accession of Queen Victoria.

Artisans and Craft Production in 19th Century Scotland
University of Edinburgh online exhibition about Scottish artisans, their work and working lives, between 1780 and 1914
http://www.artisansinscotland.shca.ed.ac.uk/items/show/9

Shows a Glass Epergne from Holyrood Flint glass co. c.1841. It consisted of 40 separate cut pieces and apparently took two years to make.

Description says:
This cut glass epergne (table centrepiece) has 40 separate pieces.  It is about a meter in height and was made by the Holyrood Flint Glass Company, Edinburgh, between 1840 and 1842, to mark the accession of Queen Victoria. …’
‘…This epergne was made for a royal table setting and was used on state occasions at Holyrood Palace in Edinburgh.  It was also displayed at the international exhibition displays that were mounted by the company – as in Edinburgh in 1886….’
‘…This glass epergne represents a spectacular display of craftsmanship and ingenious design, with numerous cut glass elements in the eight separate bowls and on the upper section, which is topped with a glass replica of a crown and a Maltese cross.  Richard Hunter, foreman glasscutter for the Holyrood Glass Company, made and probably also designed the piece, taking two years to complete it and bringing prestige and publicity for his employers in the process
.’

- That seems like  a long time to make a cut glass epergne? 
It was 40 pieces though and by comparison if we assume the uranium cut glass engraved bowls in the V&A are the 'dozen topaz finger glasses' in the description for the banquet, we are only talking about 12 cut and engraved uranium glass bowls v 40 pieces.
However, they would have had to have been made, cut and engraved and delivered in 27 days



3) The uranium bowls are engraved. 

This is a report from 1869 (The Industries of Scotland, David Bremner) that described the engraved glass from Scotland of 1856 as in it's infancy and as 'coarse and inartistic'

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Industries_of_Scotland/fz1VAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+industries+of+scotland+manufactures+of+glass&pg=PA376&printsec=frontcover
In the modern school of glass-engraving Edinburgh stands in the highest class, and it is exceedingly creditable that that position has been gained after only a few years' exertion. At the Art Exhibition held in Edinburgh in 1856 glass-engraving was in its infancy in Scotland, and the specimens then shown were coarse and inartistic.'

- If the engraving was coarse and inartistic and in it's infancy in Scotland in 1856, then it seems to me  the engraving on the uranium glass bowls in the V&A and the Corning were unlikely to have been made twenty years earlier in 1837 in Scotland. 
The U instead of V is questionable however the rest of the engraving is to my mind very artistic.



4) From further reading it seems Holyrood Glassworks did have a connection with a Bohemian glass engraver called J. H. B. Millar.

Source: The Industries of Scotland 1869
See page 386 and 387 in the link below where it says Mr Millar only worked for Messrs. Millar & Co and for Mr Ford of the Holyrood Glasswork:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Industries_of_Scotland/fz1VAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+industries+of+scotland+manufactures+of+glass&pg=PA376&printsec=frontcover

I can't find the info source reference now, however I think Mr Millar came over c.1850 and started his engraving then (will find source and link later).

5) Millar exhibited at the 1862 International Exhibition (see page 410)  where they were described as exhibiting engraved glass and china:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Record_of_the_International_Exhibiti/Tx9dAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=great+exhibition+1862+glass&pg=PA402&printsec=frontcover


6) Further in the description of 1869 in Industries of Scotland by David Bremner, Bremner writes this:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Industries_of_Scotland/fz1VAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+industries+of+scotland+manufactures+of+glass&pg=PA376&printsec=frontcover

‘At the Art Exhibition held in Edinburgh in 1856 glass-engraving was in its infancy in Scotland, and the specimens then shown were coarse and inartistic.

It was not until the firm of Messrs J. Millar & Co., of Edinburgh, turned attention to the matter that a decided. and hopeful start was made. So rapid was the progress, that Messrs Millar were able to show at the Great Exhibition of 1862 a collection of engraved glass which attracted universal attention, and won the favourable notice of art critics. A happy hit was made by the beautiful fern pattern then first produced, and now copied by engravers everywhere. Following up the success thus achieved, the firm have gone on producing novelty after novelty. At the Paris Exhibition they made a magnificent display, and, notwithstanding the severe test of competition with the famous glass-makers of the Continent, held their own in the department of engraved flint-glass. Some of the decanters and wine glasses shown were exquisitely beautiful, and were eagerly bought by art collectors. In order that engraved glass might become popular, it was necessary that it should be cheap as well as beautiful; and the Edinburgh makers were among the first to meet both requirements, the result being that their productions are finding their way to the tables of the middle as well as of the upper classes of society. The nobility are now having their coats of arms engraved on every article of table crystal; and persons who have no heraldic emblems to display are having their glasses inscribed with mono-grams
.’

So could Millar's have engraved the uranium glass bowls in the V&A and the Corning after 1850?

7) Bonhams show a c.1862 goblet with a coin in the stem here, of which they say in their footnotes 'The engraving was probably executed in the glass engraving studio of J.H.B. Millar, which was supplied with blanks by the Holyrood Glassworks of John Ford. Several examples exist in the collection of Huntly House Museum, Edinburgh.'

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17241/lot/1410/

Not the greatest photography (click on the image and it will enable you to + to enlarge the detail) to show the design but the style of engraving might have some similarities with the V&A and Corning bowl engraving in the style of the leaves?

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #201 on: February 20, 2023, 01:46:43 PM »
4) additional information

With reference point 4) in long post above - re Millar coming over from Bohemia in 1850:
Source: Artisans and Craft Production in 19th Century Scotland, A University of Edinburgh online exhibition about Scottish artisans, their work and working lives, between 1780 and 1914

http://www.artisansinscotland.shca.ed.ac.uk/items/show/9

quote:
'...The owner of the company mid century, John Ford, who took over from an uncle, was apprentice trained as a glasscutter, making a cut glass fruit bowl as his apprenticeship piece.  The company also maintained a strong relationship with a glass engraving workshop, J.H.B Millar, founded in the 1850s by a Bohemian entrepreneur with Bohemian workmen.  J.H.B Millar was particularly associated with the development of the Scottish fern pattern design.'

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2023, 02:58:00 PM »
8 ) Engraved glass from Millar exhibited at the Paris Exhibition 1867 was shown in the Art Journal in quite some detail and numerous examples (see page 95) :

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Art_journal/ZllVAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Messrs.+Millar+%26+co+engraving&pg=PA379&printsec=frontcover

- If it was reported in 1869 that he worked only with Holyrood glass works then I presume these examples were made at Holyrood?


9) National Museums of Scotland show this glass from Millar from 1875 on twitter.  If you enlarge the museum link you can see detail of the engraving.  The script is gothic style however the foliage can be seen quite well.  There seems to me to be some polished highlights on the smaller leaves:
https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/collection-search-results/goblet-presentation/634065

https://twitter.com/NtlMuseumsScot/status/1440354034158764040/photo/1

Link to uranium bowl in V&A for quick comparison of engraving style:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2170/finger-bowl-davenport-co/finger-bowl-davenport--co/?carousel-image=2016JR2220

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #203 on: February 20, 2023, 04:01:18 PM »
An interesting piece of information here:

A wineglass engraved, in the V&A. 
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4287/wine-glass-apsley-pellatt/

The information says:

'Wine glass, England (possibly London), possibly made by Apsley Pellatt & Co., 1850-1850'

'GALLERY LABEL
Probably commissioned by the City of London, whose arms are included in the decoration, and made to commemorate the Great Exhibition of 1851.
British Galleries: TWO WINE GLASSES engraved with Exhibition motifs
Apsley Pellat, the famous firm of glass manufacturers, showed many drinking vessels in their display, as well as a huge chandelier. The twisted white threads in both stems imitate Venetian glass. Many glasses in this style were engraved, using motifs relevant for the occasion - including the globe (signifying the international theme) and the crown (signifying royal support).(27/03/2003)'


CATEGORIES
Glass
British Galleries
Drinking
Great Exhibition
SCRAN
OBJECT TYPE
Wine glass
MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES
Clear glass with opaque twist, engraved
BRIEF DESCRIPTION
Wine glass, England (possibly London), possibly made by Apsley Pellatt & Co., 1850-1850
DIMENSIONS
Height: 14.0cm
Bowl diameter: 8.4cm
Foot diameter: 7.0cm
Dimensions checked: Measured; 07/07/1999 by Terry Diam. of foot 7.0cms
STYLE
Victorian
GALLERY LABEL
Probably commissioned by the City of London, whose arms are included in the decoration, and made to commemorate the Great Exhibition of 1851.
British Galleries: TWO WINE GLASSES engraved with Exhibition motifs
Apsley Pellat, the famous firm of glass manufacturers, showed many drinking vessels in their display, as well as a huge chandelier. The twisted white threads in both stems imitate Venetian glass. Many glasses in this style were engraved, using motifs relevant for the occasion - including the globe (signifying the international theme) and the crown (signifying royal support).(27/03/2003)
Read less

OBJECT HISTORY
Possibly made for the royal tables at city banquets at 'The Albion' Banqueting Hall, London, in commemmoration of the Great Exhibition 1851

Possibly made in London at Apsley Pellat's Falcon glassworks

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #204 on: February 20, 2023, 08:44:12 PM »
You might be interested in the engraved Victoria diamond jubilee tumbler I found.

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,72538.0.html

I think it was just a relatively cheap souvenir but I don’t think the engraving is worse than on the finger bowls. Especially when you consider the engraving on my glass is about a third, or half the size of that on the finger bowls.
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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #205 on: February 20, 2023, 09:37:01 PM »
That's a great find Ekimp.

The engraving is lovely :)  I don't think it's the same quality as the finger bowls to be honest (eeek, sorry) but that's taking into account the whole design and balance of the engraving stylistically across and around the bowl.  But as a souvenir it's very good for that period I think.  To compare souvenirs of the period and type the only ones I've remembered are things commemorating Exhibitions such as Glasgow maybe?
It's a great find.  I presume there must have been quite a few of these made but perhaps they have all been ditched over time as they're not easily found online when searching! There are a few online but they're very basic and 'mass produced'. 
That one looks like nice quality as well with the polished flat base. The engraving is similar, perhaps the bowl looks more careful/polished because it's on uranium glass and clearly a quality piece.

Mind you it's possible the Royal Household just got these plain old things :)
https://www.wheelerantiques.co.uk/glasses/antique-wine-glass-etched-queen-victoria-emblem-probably-royal-household

Very stylish but not much going on there  ;D

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #206 on: February 20, 2023, 10:57:52 PM »
And having said all this about John Ford Holyrood uranium glass, I've been wondering where this Holyrood Topaz uranium glass might be. 
It's just occurred to me that Apsley Pellatt had to replace an entire shipment as it fractured a few months after receipt. 

So, a comparison:
 The recipe from Holyrood in Jill Turnbull The Magic and Misery of Glass Making:
was given as:

' In May 1841, pot number one (of eight) in the furnace was charged with 545lbs of their clear ‘flint’ (lead) glass[1] to which 6lbs of ‘oxide of uranium’ was added. It ‘turned out very good’. '

https://booksfromscotland.com/2017/09/magic-misery-glassmaking-scotland/



The recipe given here (1876) is :
Gold Topaz, 6 cwt. of batch. 3 pounds of oxide of uranium.

From online conversion it looks like 6 cwt. is 672lb? (open to correction)

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Johnson_s_New_Universal_Cyclop%C3%A6dia_a_Sc/CJNRAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=recipe+uranium+glass+flint+oxide&pg=PA569&printsec=frontcover

If that is correct then the amount of uranium in Holyrood glass might be quite high? 
I have no idea whether the difference in quantities would affect the outcome of the glass crizzling at a later date despite John Ford saying it had turned out well?

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #207 on: February 20, 2023, 11:05:02 PM »
Thanks, I wasn’t saying my glass was anything fantastic so you’re ok :D I was assuming my glass was reasonably cheap, being on a light weight tumbler rather than something nice and heavy, but even so, the engraving doesn’t look too dissimilar to the stuff for the Queen’s table. I think the way the thistle, leaves, and rose is constructed on my glass is the same as on the bowls, they have used similar mark making.

The overall look of the engraving on the bowls, taken as a whole, is good. But I don’t think it is very refined when you look at the detail. For example, the midribs and veins on the clover leaves are really quite crude. They are thick lines quickly done in a cross shape, they could be fine and tapered at the ends.

And the areas where they have polished the big leaves looks like it’s just been one quick touch on the wheel. They could have feathered out the polishing along the leaf to add depth.

And the thistle is two dimensional with that rough hatching to make the body. They haven’t even shaded any of the back ground of the thistle before hatching on top.

To me, except for the crown and monogram, it gives the impression of something a bit sketchy that was done quickly.
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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #208 on: February 20, 2023, 11:32:13 PM »
I know what you mean. Especially when you compare it to some of the early engraved glass in the book from Neuwelt to the Whole World.  Example page 55 c.1790 or the glass on pages 134/135. 
or something like this from the master Dominik Biemann
https://www.artic.edu/artworks/36379/medallion

Or this which is pretty amazing in terms of conveying light and shade and depth to the design:
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22021/lot/41/a-bohemian-engraved-goblet-and-cover-attributed-to-anton-simm-jablonec-circa-1830-40/

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22021/lot/41/a-bohemian-engraved-goblet-and-cover-attributed-to-anton-simm-jablonec-circa-1830-40/

The way the bowl engraving is done, or rather the effect it gives, is though quite similar to Walsh Walsh Fruiting Vine I think in some ways, including the small highlight parts in certain areas:

https://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/653181/set-of-six-john-walsh-cut-and-engraved-green-wine-glasses-c1930/#

To be honest I assume all glass engraving must be pretty difficult to do :)
m

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