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Author Topic: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.  (Read 2160 times)

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Offline AdrianW

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A friend has asked me to identify this vase for her. I am transiently stumped, as cut glass isn't really my area. Does anyone have any ideas as to who made this?

Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau. I'm guessing the rim is a later addition?




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Offline AdrianW

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2021, 02:44:46 PM »
I was wondering whether the flowers were thistles; and if so whether that might suggest Scottish origin?

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2021, 03:56:15 PM »
IMHO not thistles - at a quick glance I thought they looked a tad like RB 'Fuchsia', but I'm sure they're not.      Unmarked cut glass, generally, is v. difficult to attribute unless the motif or whatever is very specific, but as you're only transiently stumped, then hopefully by morning you will have remembered the answer ;D        I thought the mitred leaves had a Stuart look, but that's a guess too, and whilst the cutting is very floral, don't think we can really say art nouveau on that basis alone, though the cut pattern is attractive.   
Is the rim EPNS? ......   would have thought unlikely to be Sterling, but seems there's a ridge on the glass on which the rim sits, so this might suggest they left the factory together do you think?                 Presumably no other marks on the metalwork.
Again, just my opinion, but would have thought very unlikely this is earlier than 1950.         Apart from the fact that there has never been a book devoted solely to cut glass, there is masses of cut material around, so information spread very widely.        I'd suggest the cutting has a mid C20 British look, rather than Scandi, but who knows  -  the usual names such as Stuart, the Webb's, Harbridge, Tudor would all be worth pursuing, though at the end of the day it may still come to nothing.      You don't mention wear  -  is there any?               Sorry this is unhelpful Adrian, though others here may have far more useful information for you - perhaps you suggest to your friend that she collects only glass with a backstamp ;D 

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Offline AdrianW

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2021, 11:37:50 PM »
IMHO not thistles - at a quick glance I thought they looked a tad like RB 'Fuchsia', but I'm sure they're not.      Unmarked cut glass, generally, is v. difficult to attribute unless the motif or whatever is very specific, but as you're only transiently stumped, then hopefully by morning you will have remembered the answer ;D        I thought the mitred leaves had a Stuart look, but that's a guess too, and whilst the cutting is very floral, don't think we can really say art nouveau on that basis alone, though the cut pattern is attractive.   
Is the rim EPNS? ......   would have thought unlikely to be Sterling, but seems there's a ridge on the glass on which the rim sits, so this might suggest they left the factory together do you think?                 Presumably no other marks on the metalwork.
Again, just my opinion, but would have thought very unlikely this is earlier than 1950.         Apart from the fact that there has never been a book devoted solely to cut glass, there is masses of cut material around, so information spread very widely.        I'd suggest the cutting has a mid C20 British look, rather than Scandi, but who knows  -  the usual names such as Stuart, the Webb's, Harbridge, Tudor would all be worth pursuing, though at the end of the day it may still come to nothing.      You don't mention wear  -  is there any?               Sorry this is unhelpful Adrian, though others here may have far more useful information for you - perhaps you suggest to your friend that she collects only glass with a backstamp ;D

Thank you Paul!

Interestingly something about it was making me think Stuart too, but I'm definitely no expert on cut glass.

FWIW I knew a positive ID is a long shot on a piece like this, but obviously if we could rule out a certain region and/or time frame it would make researching it a lot easier. I was secretly hoping someone would come along and go "Ahh yes, that's the Stuart Frogs and Princes pattern" :)

Good point about the rim being cut in, I hadn't noticed that - you're right, it suggests it was probably made that way, rather than modified.

Apparently no identifying marks on any of it, the collar is apparently completely without any form of markings, EPNS or otherwise. The darkness of it made me think pewter, but you're right it could easily be plate, I think silver would be unlikely without any marks though. Life would be a lot easier if I could handle it!

I'm sure I will come up with a positive ID for it; that sort of thing usually happens 10 seconds before I fall asleep. I then wake up in the morning with a recollection of identifying it, but with absolutely no recollection of the ID itself ;)

I was thinking it was older than mid-century for two reasons, firstly the quality of the cutting is better than most modern work, and secondly apparently there is some wear. The mounting doesn't seem modern to me either?

I also think there might be some minor tint to the glass, but it's hard to tell - the WB may be a bit off due to the chartreuse tablecloth...

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2021, 08:21:00 AM »
thanks Adrian - when we're discussing a piece from an unknown maker, and have an absence of positive info, we tend to be rather speculative about its history - though we have to start somewhere and speculation can be useful.      You may well be correct about an earlier date for this one - most mid C20 cut vases don't have metalwork like this, so that could be a pointer to perhaps 1930 - 1940, and your comments about the quality of cutting might also suggest an earlier date.         You might suggest to your friend to rub the collar with a silver polish cloth and see if there's a response similar to silver - though that's not going to help of course with attribution for the glass.    In fact the metal might be something like a chrome finish which can also turn dark with time.        Hope you do get a sudden positive recollection for ID - take a pencil and paper to bed, and hadn't realized that you'd not seen this in the flesh  -  handling most things can be of massive benefit.    This might be British, could also be German or Czech perhaps  -  I hate to be pessimistic but am not holding out too much hope, and unfortunately, there are very few folk here who come forward on occasions like this for cut glass.    best of luck. 

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Offline brucebanner

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2021, 07:04:03 AM »
The shape looks very Stourbridge,Tudor, Stuart or even maybe Brum Walsh.1930's. The rim looks odd. Do you think it could be a repair to hide damage to the rim? I will post a pic of a few a bit later on.
Chris Parry

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Offline AdrianW

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2021, 12:22:25 AM »
The shape looks very Stourbridge,Tudor, Stuart or even maybe Brum Walsh.1930's. The rim looks odd. Do you think it could be a repair to hide damage to the rim? I will post a pic of a few a bit later on.

Thanks Chris! FWIW I don't think the rim is to hide damage, because (as Paul has mentioned) the rim appears to cut-in to fit the mount?

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Offline AdrianW

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2021, 12:26:23 AM »
thanks Adrian - when we're discussing a piece from an unknown maker, and have an absence of positive info, we tend to be rather speculative about its history - though we have to start somewhere and speculation can be useful.      You may well be correct about an earlier date for this one - most mid C20 cut vases don't have metalwork like this, so that could be a pointer to perhaps 1930 - 1940, and your comments about the quality of cutting might also suggest an earlier date.         You might suggest to your friend to rub the collar with a silver polish cloth and see if there's a response similar to silver - though that's not going to help of course with attribution for the glass.    In fact the metal might be something like a chrome finish which can also turn dark with time.        Hope you do get a sudden positive recollection for ID - take a pencil and paper to bed, and hadn't realized that you'd not seen this in the flesh  -  handling most things can be of massive benefit.    This might be British, could also be German or Czech perhaps  -  I hate to be pessimistic but am not holding out too much hope, and unfortunately, there are very few folk here who come forward on occasions like this for cut glass.    best of luck.

Thanks Paul; as you say it's a long shot - but it's always worth asking, just in case a magician comes along ;)

My gut says British, and early 20th century, but I have very little to back that up!

Agreed, handling it would be very helpful...

FWIW the mount is apparently pewter.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 04:17:38 PM »
thanks Adrian  -  I could be very wrong, and just my very personal opinion, but I'd have thought unlikely the rim would be pewter  -  does it say that or is there some more speculation here ;D     If not Sterling, or EPNS, then I'd have gone for a chrome type finish, and that can often become dark after half a century or more - similar to how EPNS behaves.

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Offline AdrianW

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Re: Cut glass, floral engraving, metal rim, star cut base, Art Nouveau.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2021, 12:02:46 AM »
thanks Adrian  -  I could be very wrong, and just my very personal opinion, but I'd have thought unlikely the rim would be pewter  -  does it say that or is there some more speculation here ;D     If not Sterling, or EPNS, then I'd have gone for a chrome type finish, and that can often become dark after half a century or more - similar to how EPNS behaves.

Thanks Paul! Remember I haven't held it, I've only seen the photos you've seen. My friend is pretty certain it's pewter though, and it's her vase? Apparently there are no markings on the rim whatsoever, other than that mild semi-planished look on the top surface. Knowing the individual I think it's likely she would have tried polishing it at some stage :)

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