Topic: Deceptive glass or just liqueur

[mhgcgolfclub]

Deceptive glass or just a liqueur. Very thick glass around the bottom of the bowl.
Weighs a heavy 264gm .
A 16 star cut base but not a lot of wear although only sits on very narrow outer rim.

Height 11cm, diameter of base 68mm and 64mm for the rim.
I am thinking Bohemian.

Thanks Roy

[cagney]

Generally glasses this size are usually called a wine. The fact of thickness in the bottom of the bowl and four part construction in this cut glass stem would lead to a date roughly 1840. The cut stem portion is an extra attribute not seen often in wines of this date in my experience.I am assuming it is lead glass.

[Paul S.]

I would add that true deception (toastmaster's glasses) almost always have a small liquid capacity - a narrowish inside to the vessel, not just a thick bottom.        I would have thought only a three part construction  i.e. bowl, stem and foot  -  with the knop being cut at the same time as the bowl.       Cagney, are you saying the knop is added as the fourth 'part'?     Agree the cutting - strawberry diamonds and some hefty mitres is very attractive, but absolutely no idea as to date or origin  -  so much has been copied that whilst some features are taken as read for a given date, many of these features recur at later dates.

[mhgcgolfclub]

I would agree it does have a small liquid capacity and thick glass at the bottom of the bowl which tappers out at the top,

[cagney]

 I was hoping somebody would pickup on this. Truly it is 3 part construction. The 4 aspect that differentiates this glass from its later versions is the wafer between the bowl and stem.I cannot count how many cut glass wines I have seen, handled, etc.. from the 1st half of the 19th c. They seem to be the most numerous article of this period.This characteristic of the wafer connecting bowl and stem is common in wines of this period. Usually dispensed with in later versions. Of course this my opinion based on my personal experience.

[NevB]

With the clear rim and general style, could it be French?

[Paul S.]

thanks for the explanation re wafer.                 In the U.K. we tend to call this feature - assuming I've not mis-understood  -  a merese.      A feature that's much slighter than a collar, but usually a little thicker than the one shown here, and they can be seen as single, double and even triple rings, and are a sign, usually, of a quality glass.    They occur not uncommonly on rummers in the first half of the C19, and likewise certain drinking glasses in the C18 and C19, and they're treated as a separate feature from collars, and again they might be single, double or triple mereses.
It starts to get a tad more complicated with many earlier glasses due to the confusion between how people differentiate between a merese, a collar and a knop.

Collars are usually more substantial than a merese - but again, are immediately under the bowl, and those wines with a collar are supposed to be earlier than those without.

I hope this explanation shows that a wafer and a merese are describing the same feature - if not we'll have to start again  -  let me know what you think.

Mike  -  in view of your comments about bowl profile, then seems this is a deception glass.       the majority of deception glass I've seen were plain and without cutting/engraving decoration -  don't know why that should be.
                                     

[NevB]

Could it be a Jules Lang import?

[cagney]

Please forgive my tardiness in answering your question Paul. Seem to be more busy these days than any other time.
Certainly this feature qualifies as a merese. A collar seems to be a bit more interpretive. Seems to include an extension of the stem surrounding a bottom portion of the bowl, more often than not showing some evidence of being worked. Not a term I am that familiar with. I assume this subject has been addressed in earlier post . Have to take a look.
  This photo of a whale oil lamp I would describe as.... pressed base, attached to a blown panel molded font with two stacked blown collars.Yes?

[Paul S.]

delayed reply not a problem       Regarding your lamp  -  a similar square pressed foot - sometimes domed, occasionally terraced, is found on only a rather narrow range of drinking glasses  -  seen most frequently possibly on English rummers 1790 - 1820 which have a short capstan stem and lemon squeezer foot, and because of similar features on your lamp I'd suggest your lamp base might be somewhere in that date range - correct me if I'm way out.      Mostly these rummers have a single 'collar' immediately below the bowl, but double and triple collars/mereses do occur.              Other than rummers, square pressed feet are found on monteith glasses, and again they are vessels with rudimentary stems and lack finesse.
The problem here seems to be one of how the experts interpret that feature immediately under the bowl  -  whether it's thick as in an 1850s collar on a wine glass, or thin as your wafer. 

Bickerton uses the word collar to describe such a feature (under the bowl) during the entire C18, whether it's thick or thin, and his index doesn't include the word merese.
Tim Mills uses both descriptions  -  merese and collar ..................  this author says of one rummer with a square, domed, lemon squeezer foot, inscribed with the date 1799  -  "....... a rounded merese to add strength between the bowl and the stem, and square foot"  -   and this particular 'merese is truly substantial  -  what I would call a collar.

I'd suggest, generally, that if the feature is fine in proportions then the word merese is more appropriate  -  if it's thick and heavy in appearance then perhaps we should say collar.     Whatever, in its finer form for quality wines it's a flattened disc often with a sharp outline to the edge - not a lot unlike a bladed knop.

Pix attached showing some second half C19 wines with and without collars  -  and some of which I'm uncertain as to description  -  these are run of the mill glasses, inexpensive and simple and don't think we would justify calling the feature here anything but a collar.

I'm clueless as to terminology for oil lamps, but think in the U.K. we might use the word reservoir instead of 'font', but I hate to be dogmatic, and since you obviously collect these things you may well be correct and likely I'm wrong  -  was there original a water filled globe as in lace makers lamps, or just a refractive type of shade?          The panel-moulding is almost wrythen in appearance.             Hollow blown knops are seen on high end goblets and wines from the late C17- but if yours are blown then IMHO I wouldn't call then collars  -  knops instead I'd suggest.
Are all three knops/collars blown  -  can't see from your picture.