Topic: Sowerby Lozenge 16 Oct 1876 ~ 304363-6

[Dubarry]

Hi Everyone, greetings from Downunder!

We have had this small vitro-porcelain glass/milk glass (?) miniature jug for many years and have found it very hard to identify because of the poor quality of the lozenge pressing. The decoration on the jug is of oak leaves and acorns near the top rim and handle.  Just by chance, tonight we looked through the jug with back lighting and it is amazing to see how some of the markings have better definition when viewed this way!  So much so, with a little guess work, we can see, (we think!) a Sowerby lozenge which dates the jug to 16 Oct 1876 ~ 304363-6.  Does anyone on the Board recognise this piece?  Perhaps Fred could shed some light on this!

There seem to be other markings pressed around the base edge which, unfortunately, are hard to decipher!  The backlit pic of the lozenge shows a V in the RH triangle and a B at the bottom. The LH side I have presumed to be an 8 as this would identify as Sowerby 16th Oct 1876.

The pic of the backlit lozenge is the best rendition I have achieved!

Many thanks in anticipation!

Barry

[Dubarry]

Hi again, the height of the jug I should have mentioned, is 6.5cm.

I will try to send larger picture(s) if requested.  I always find sizing to fit very difficult!

Many thanks
Barry

[Paul S.]

Hi  -  you might try the IrfanView re-sizing programme - free to download and very useful.           Not sure of the size of your pix, but if you can get the first dimension to 700 that will help.

I've had a look at TNA pix for the four Sowerby Registrations you mention  -  three of which are vases and one a plate  -  none is a handled jug with lip, in the shape of the piece you show here, which indicates that the protection offered wasn't for the shape of your piece (that's assuming you have read the lozenge No. correctly).                      However, the three Sowerby jugs from that date all appear to have some some form of surface decoration in the form of plant forms, though whether any of the decoration on them matches the decoration on your piece I can't tell as your pix not clear enough to make an accurate comparison.              In general, Registrations were either for the design/shape of a piece or alternatively for the decoration only, and it may be that the decoration on you jug does match the decoration on one of the Sowerby vases from 16.10.1876.

It might help to settle this issue if you are able to photograph the neck only, showing just the moulded decoration, as clearly as possible.              Just looked again at the height of this piece - seems unusually short for a jug, so assume a small cream or milk jug.           Regret the backlit picture is too poor to be of help.

[thewingedsphinx]

The blue Sowerby Gateshead glass book refer that reg number without the -6 to this hexagonal vase.

 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-SOWERBY-MILK-GLASS-MINIATURE-VASE-19TH-C-/202080291859

There are several variations and colours to these vases. I cannot see any reference to a handled jug.

My father has a large collection of this type of Sowerby era vitro porcelain, the handle on your jug looks very unusual to be associated. Where do you get the -6 from?
Thanks Mike

[Anne]

Barry, if you can't get the size sorted please feel free to email me big copies of your pics and I'll resize them and add them for you. support@glassmessages.com will reach me.

Re the RD no, 304363-6 of 16 Oct 1876, this actually means that the four numbers in the sequence 304363 to 304366 were all registered by the same company on the same day. It's the way that the registrations are shown on the Great Glass website. Some years ago  Paul posted images of the design register drawings in this topic http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,64560.msg361707.html#msg361707

[Dubarry]

Hi all. 

 Thanks for your interest in my little jug.  I have re-photographed and included 3 pics here.  They each weigh in at 125KB so lets see if I have got it right this time!  I will attempt to send another picture of the lozenge tonight, but I need a bit of time to prepare it with backlighting and manual focus and then see if it's better than the original I sent, but unfortunately the base is totally illegible (just a blob).  I've had this jug for around 15 years and just by chance looked at it with a photography light shining inside and I couldn't believe the clarity it gave me.  If all fails I will send Anne some bigger pics.  Mike, I use "Great Glass" for the sleuthing and for this date 16 Oct 1876, the only reference is 304363-6 which are the item numbers other members are referring to.  Somewhere, I must have my wires crossed!  A good picture of the lozenge should reveal all.  Let's hope.

Many thanks to all.

[Paul S.]

thanks for the improved image of the leaf decoration  -  looks rather like a sprig of oak leaves plus a couple of acorns.              My opinion is that this isn't a Sowerby piece, for several reasons, but mainly because I'm not aware the factory produced decoration with such massive relief effect as shown by these acorns, and there seems to be an absence of the Company Trade Mark too.
I don't have any Opal Vitro-Porcelain at the moment so can't make a comparison, but would imagine this piece might be nearest to that particular colour  -  I don't recall how translucent Opal was, or wasn't.            Having looked at the decoration on the vases under 304363 - 304365 - in Anne's link  -  have to say they don't have much similarity with the oak leaves on this one.    Sorry to be rather negative Barry.
 

[Dubarry]

Greetings again from Downunder.

Thanks Paul for your further input.  I have attached the pic of the lozenge and although a little bigger, (I hope) the crispness of the lozenge is still a problem due to the poor pressing.  With the light through the jug I would say the right hand number is a "V" and to my eyes would be hard to mistake and this would date the jug as 1876.  Conjecture over the bottom letter which looks like a "B" but not 100% sure.  It is very difficult!  Above the RD looks like a "6", again unsure.  But on Great Glass there are only a handful of manufacturers (about 14) for the year 1876 so I might have to start looking for images from these makers to find a solution.

If anyone can see what I am seeing in the photograph and throw a little light on my dilemma I would be very grateful.

Thanks for the interest and help so far!

Kind regards
Barry

[Dubarry]

Hello again to all.

Just sending this photo as a follow-up to show the problem with the pressing.  This is the lozenge viewed in the normal way, with no lighting enhancement.

Barry.

[Paul S.]

I'd not spotted what looks like some possible wording around the base rim  -  of course, I might be imagining things  -  is there something legible can you see?

apologies  -  you'd mentioned this in your first post Barry, and from what you said then seems illegible.