Topic: Mystery swag moulded bowl

[Cranesbill]

Firstly, I apologise for the poor photos of the bowl. I've had some difficulty shooting at the lowest available resolution on my camera then cropping each exposure to fit within the forum allowance.

I've owned this water-damaged bowl for many years but I haven't been able to pin down the manufacturer. The exterior moulding is a six-sided swagged design, but this bowl shape appears in none of the Whitefriars resources I can find online, or the Jackson book. I thought it might be either an early 20thC Webb 'Cascade' design (from the drawings in an appendix to the earlier Hadjamach book), or an uncatalogued Wealdstone pattern. An acquanitance who is knowledgable about both these areas tells me the bowl doesn't fit either possibility.

Aside from the acquired damage, the glass is very good quality.

Approx. dimensions: 17cm across top rim x 9cm high x 10cm across foot.

[Cranesbill]

Any ideas, anyone?

I've received a suggestion from another acquaintance the bowl might be a version of Wealdstone W10, though the catalogue page shows it as a vertically ribbed pattern, and the proprtions look different to me.

Might the W10 be a possibility?

[Paul S.]

Hi - as a complete 'Wealdstone' ignoramus, I'd say definitely nothing to do with W.10.          W.10 does have a similarity with your bowl, insofar as they are both 'footed' and have everted rims, but there the similarity ends -  as you say, W.10 is a vertically ribbed pattern, no swags in sight plus W.10 is a bucket shaped piece.                       
Wealdstone pattern Nos. for 1931 - 34, in the Wuidart catalogue, seem not to follow a design format that shows a logical sequence such that we might say, for example, W.1 through to W.25, are all swag moulded, and all W Nos. after that are rib moulded etc.
In fact, W.1, W.3 and W. 10 are all rib moulded - and W.9, W.8 and W.18 are all horizontal swags - so Nos. seem to be random as to moulding and would be unreliable for making a safe deduction as to whether a piece was swagged or ribbed.           

The pattern Nos. run to quite high digits in the 'big book', so presumably there were a lot more shapes/patterns made than are shown, and unless we can see the entire range then we may never know.     Shapes in the swag moulded design were certainly made with a foot, so in view of the quantity of other patterns/shapes that we can't see, then we can't say with certainly that yours couldn't be one of the shapes not shown - it may well be.

There is a Pattern W.5/W, which shows a horizontally swagged bowl which appears identical to the one here (in terms of appearance of the bowl part) but it lacks the foot that this one has  -  unfortunately, the original catalogue omits any reference to sizes - you might ask your acquaintance for their opinion on that suggestion.         Many glass houses offered similar shapes/patterns for a given bowl for example, and it would be offered with and without a foot.

Generally, the differentiating feature, when compared to Webb, is that the latter moulding is waved rather than swagged as with the W/Fs. pieces, but the trouble is that other companies may have copied or had their own take on these designs.        Is it possible the one here is a Scandi piece do you think?
Looking at the first Wuidart catalogue page in 'the big book', for Wealdstone' pieces, the colours available for Wealdstone were ...........  gold/green/violet/lido blue/royal blue/peacock blue/silver grey and helion ..........  no mention of clear??                                     The water in a lido always seemed cold, when I went swimming - a few years back.

As far as I know, and supported by the Jackson book which accompanied the W/Fs exhibition at the Museum of London a few years back, this museum may possibly possess more information on shapes and patterns of Wuidart material, so contacting them might help.

[Cranesbill]

Hi Paul

Thanks very much for a considered response. Excellent points all.

I agree the Wealdstone W10 isn't likely, but I'll take a closer look at the other bowls you mention. What I hadn't fully grasped until reading your observations just now is how many WF pattern numbers are unaccompanied by any line drawings or photos. 

I don't have access to the 'big book', alas. When I bought the Jackson book c. 1996, I looked at the more expensive MoL book and thought "some other time", not realising these publications tend to have a single print run!

Must admit, I hadn't thought of the Scandi possibility. I'll look into this and see what I can discover.

[Paul S.]

There was a time I had two copies of Jackson's book - now I have none.      In some ways Lesley Jackson's volume is easier to use  -  it has good quality pix of most of the patterns we're likely to see and in close proximity without the need to spend ages looking.                With the big book, there's quite a bit of thumbing through to find something, and there aren't so many coloured pix - I'm a pictures person.            Best of luck ............  It has just occurred to me  -  what does the colour helion look like - I've no idea?

[Cranesbill]

I am definitely a pictures person, though I plough dutifully through the text too. Of course. 

Helion...A bright yellow? As far as I know, WF never used uranium in their glass, but this colour would probably have been lighter, and perhaps brighter, than amber/gold.  I'd love to see examples of all the Wealdstone colours aside from those available in the Jackson book.

[Paul S.]

with a subject like ours, pix are essential - the alternative would be a tedious and difficult wordy explanation, and agree that the use of uranium seems not to have occurred which seems surprising - another glass house that, to the best of my knowledge, never produced anything containing uranium, was Stuart, though they knocked out a lot of green coloured glass.

W/Fs also did a black, though whether this was created by the use of manganese the book doesn't say.

Talking of Wuidart colours, the big book says ..........    "Wuidart's list 'Royal Blue, Peacock Blue, Lido Blue, Green, Violet, Gold Silver Grey and Helion'.        This last-named has not been identified - it presumably comes from the Greek word for sun, and could be 'yellow', 'buff' or 'bronze'."
Quoting again from the big book  .............   "The years 1929 to 1932  show a lot of new, often stronger, colours including those used for Wuidart's Wealdstone range.   One of the workbooks actually refers to 'jazz colours', sometimes spelt 'jass'."

When W/Fs turned the gas off in 1980 a lot of pieces went to the MoL along with other bequests etc., but this inventory of cast-offs from a variety of periods doesn't specifically mention Wuidart material - but then perhaps it wouldn't in view of the fact that W/Fs didn't sell the stuff they made for Wuidart.                     Have you been to the MoL and seen any of the wuidart/Wealdstone glass?

[Cranesbill]

I haven't been down to the Big Smoke in a very long time. If I ever do, MoL and the glass galleries at the V&A are definitely on the list. Have you visited these?

The list of Wuidart colours is interesting. I think I've read that royal blue is the same colour as the standard pre-WW2 sanctuary blue of the WF range. No idea about the lido blue and peacock blue. I tend to gauge colour in terms of the Munsell colour wheel, and I imagine them as greener, or 'cooler' blues than royal blue, but I could be wrong. As for the silver grey, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a very similar colour to Elfverson silver, given the links between this company, Wuidart and Whitefriars. Now I'm wondering whether helion actually resembles Elfverson straw, which I've found ranges from a pale, smoky amber through to a slightly darker amber-bronze hue.

[Paul S.]

fortunately, that expression is now a bit of a misnomer - the place is quite clean, mind you the Thames doesn't look like a piece of water you'd want to jump into.          I used to visit the V. & A. glass gallery fairly regularly  -  they offered a walk in surgery once or twice a month and you could take along your treasured possession and they'd have a go at ID  -  but I haven't been for year or so.         Mind you, I'm quite close in terms of miles, and being centuries old get to travel on all the public transport gratis.
Haven't been to the MoL for many years  -  always remember they had one of the massive doors to Debtors Prison, on show  -  but no idea as to their display of W/Fs glass.         I'm a bit of a museum anorak - or at least was till the plague crept up on us  -  and I'm now more of a B.L. freak  -  looking at all those Books of Hours etc.         If you get the chance (forgive the pun) am sure you'd enjoy viewing their Whitefriars collection, and you can come back and tell us all about the Wuidart colours

guy goes into Sotheby's for a valuation on an old book  -  expert thumbs through a few pages and tells the guy that it is indeed very old and valuable  -  it's a Book of Hours he tells the man  - it's bothery well not says the guy, it's mine.

[ahremck]

I would still think it probably Whitefriars - despite your not being able to find it in a catalogue.  Their vases of this type did indeed have a hexagonal appearance when viewed from above/below.  Webb had a square with rounded corners appearance. - see my photos.

Ross