Topic: Cut Glass Wine Frosted Bowl Faceted Stem

[mhgcgolfclub]

Bought at car boot just for the GMB as it looked quite interesting for only 20p. It has a couple of chips to rim.
At first I thought it was pressed glass with some cutting , but I think it's all cut.

I would think late Victorian.
Frosted bowl with some cutting, faceted stem and a 32 star cut base.

Heavy 464gm in weight
Height 5.25"
Diameter of bowl 3.20" and base just over 3.25"
Pictures are  not my best sorry.
Thanks for looking

[Ekimp]

Nice glass, thanks for buying and showing

The frosted finish looks to have used the method I describe for the frosted decanter in my topic here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70868.0.html and particularly the bowl I added in reply 19, which had cutting in the frosting and a 32 point star in the foot. In your glass it looks like there are similar horizontal striations from mechanically abrading the surface to achieve the matting/frosting, rather than from acid.

Shame about the chips, I wonder if the rim has already been ground down to remove old damage and it had a fire polished rim? Is it odd to finish the glass at the height of the apex of the ‘leaves’ so that there is the ripple in the rim from the cutting? Maybe aesthetically it might look better with a clear band at the top and be more comfortable for taking a sip, lips away from the cut decoration.

More naturalistic version of similar leaves on Keith’s jug here: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70337.msg391649.html

[Paul S.]

agree, a good looking C19 piece Roy - I'd go more for c. 1850 - 1860 if pushed, when this frosted surface seems to have been quite the vogue.       Have attached picture of a water jug with similar finish - I may well have posted this previously - with cutting showing a stylized floral type of decoration.    Mine doesn't have a star cut underside  -  just an eight way fairly deep cut mitre pattern, strap handle and cut and beveled rim.
I've used a lens to look at the frosting and there is categorically nothing to suggest this was created using a surface abrasion i.e. there is a complete absence of direction lines, which suggest it's probably acid.     Having seen similar surfaces created by sand blasting, am sure that isn't the case here  -  sand blasting usually leaves a noticeably granular appearance to the surface.

If you have a lens, try looking into the mitres  -  however good they are there should still be a faint impression remaining of the lines caused by the wheel.

[Ekimp]

This frosted stuff is quite attractive. I wonder if your jug might actually be post 1890 Paul, as the ‘stylized floral type of decoration’ looks like the Intaglio technique developed by Northwood. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68028.msg378315.html

[Paul S.]

 you may well be correct re your suggestion of date  -  I just post the pictures   -  it was just that I do know some frosted material i.e. shown by Mark West for example, is quoted as being c. 'The Great Exhibition' - so I jumped on the bandwagon.    To be honest I really don't know.
I think there is a mine shaft of potential confusion here with the word intaglio  -  and perhaps it gets hijacked for other processes, since the word in its bare form simply means cut or carved into, and I think Anne (Mod.) has covered this before, and just about any kind of 'below the surface' decoration - where material is removed - is intaglio.       Pressed/moulded glass excluded.

Just looked again at the jug and all of the cut decoration is created by means of the wheel, without leaving any matt or other finish.    It's a clever looking piece of cutting - reminiscent of Kny when he was with Stuart  -  the glass surface is presented to the edge of the wheel, and the cut is  -  as you adequately described in your link  -  90 degrees one side reducing to nothing at the other.   

However, it wasn't the cutting that was of interest to me - rather it was the frosted finish  -  I'm sure not stippling or sand blasting, and likely not a surface abrasion as in unidirectional lines from the object being in a lathe.                     
These guys were clever  -  handcraft and necessity being the Mother of invention, makes for skilled craftsmen over a lifetime of manual work  -  do we think they might have used a resist of some sort?     I could be wrong, but as far as my jug goes I'm really rather in favour of acid, but not lysergic.            Anyway thanks for your thoughts as always - much appreciated. 

[Ekimp]

Who knows

Completely agree re the term intaglio, it is unfortunate that Northwood didn’t pick a different name but I suppose as he invented the particular cutting technique as described in my link, then he could choose the name and we’re stuck with it. Perhaps his Intaglio should be just the one with the big ‘I’.

I have no idea if they would frost a surface then apply a handle but a jug couldn’t be turned on a lathe to frost the surface mechanically after - unless the operator was very very quick

I’ve seen a frosted surface that was very uniform looking with no obvious scratching that I’ve been sure was abraded mechanically from observation of other clues, such as where the frosting stops. If they used acid with a resist then the frosting should finish at a sharp line whereas with the mechanical technique you should see a slightly feathered edge. Have to look very closely though. Very difficult to photograph such things. I was accepting your jug as being acid frosted...but it would be interesting to have a look with my loupe

Had to google lysergic

[flying free]

Can I question the acid comment about it finishing in a sharp line please?  Acid frosting doesn't always finish in a sharp line is my understanding as sometimes the acid seems to 'bleed' on the edges for want of a better description.  Or at least that is what I've come to understand from my looking at French and Bohemian acid etched pieces 

Also about sandblasting 'sand blasting usually leaves a noticeably granular appearance to the surface'
I know that was directed at 19th century pieces but I do have a piece that's Japanese that has been sand blasted and it's incredibly unbelievably smooth.
 That said, I suppose it could be perceived as a 'granular' effect:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51779.msg293620.html#msg293620
see also
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/137705-japanese-made-cameo-glass-vase

I could be wrong, after all we all view things differently, but I'm just wary of making statements that might not pertain to all makers if you see what I mean.
m

[Paul S.]

oh, I'm sure we all see what you mean m.

Acid and lines  -  not sure I'm with you there ......  I had this feeling someone had said that looked at closely, some of the frosted finishes showed lines, and I was simply commenting that this effect wouldn't be the result of acid.    Something about abrasion created whilst a piece was on a lathe giving rise to lines.

Most if not all the machine acid etched glass was coated with resist and the needle did its magic - then dipped - then the resist washed off.

Re sandblasting ............   I once had a couple of Sowerby drinking tumblers - c. late C19 from memory - and the result of sandblasting was a very granular and coarse finish.          I was suggesting that in view of a probable similar date for my jug, then if that too been sandblasted - might you not see the same rather coarse finish? 

Have to say I'm the least knowledgeable about causes of frosted finishes  -  other than the obvious acid work.     I was having trouble with spinning something on a lathe and holding sandpaper or whatever to remove the shine  -  but that's likely an unfounded prejudice.   

[Ekimp]

Yes, I shouldn’t have made such a definite statement, I usually try and hedge by sticking in a few probablys or maybes I was thinking of the items I’m sure are mechanically abraded where the frosting finishes with some fine scratches that feather out like the examples below. I don’t think there would be this finish to acid frosting but more likely to be some sort of more defined edge, even if it had bled under a resist (maybe)

My point on this has been that lots of “the obvious acid work” might actually not be, but I had been trying not to hijack another topic about frosting

[flying free]

Fabulous pics especially the bottom one. I would have suspected acid etching for the bottom one 

I might have to try and do some pics of those I have and see what they look like close up.

m