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Author Topic: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?  (Read 2958 times)

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Offline OX151

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Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« on: October 23, 2021, 03:29:10 PM »
I think this might be by James Powell & Sons but not sure. Can anyone confirm maker?  Thanks.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 03:43:52 PM »
very attractive  -  first look made me think of Stuart, athough you could be correct with W/Fs though presently can't see this particular pattern.      When they were at Wealdstone, and somewhere around the late 1920s they decorated some optically moulded bowls with a finely threaded almost wavy like threading.

We have folk here who are good at W/Fs  -  fingers crossed they will look in.

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 03:44:08 PM »
My gut wants to say Stuart

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Offline flying free

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2021, 06:29:02 PM »
agree definite Stuart vibes (the green colour and the wavy rim) but can I also throw in S&W?

There is this one which is being sold as S&W:
https://www.20thcenturyglass.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=275_280_305&products_id=4628

This one has been attributed to Stuart but I thought this decor could be S&W Fibrillose (for the colour of the trailing)
https://www.antiques.co.uk/antique/Late-19th-Century-Stourbridge-Trailed-Glass-Vase-Rd-No-36652-c1890

Although I mostly think of S&W green as being like this one (although again I'm unsure if this is definitely S&W):
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/stevens-and-williams-green-art-glass-bowl-130-c-13746fa9c6

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2021, 08:39:10 PM »
I feel slightly queasy - I saw an example of your third linked item on Thursday - and left it behind.  :'(  Must rush back on Monday morning.   

But - as for the second linked item, there is something very adrift IMHO.          Reg. 36652 - which would occur c. October 1885 - doesn't appear in either Slack or Thompson.      However, Reg. 336502 dated 20th November 1900, was allocated to S. & W., and described by them -  as m points out - as 'applied trailed veins of dark green glass as diagonals  ...... to produce a rough herringbone effect.'             Reynolds doesn't show an example  -  Gulliver reproduces a small b. & w. drawing which he has obviously copied from the original factory drawing now at TNA, Kew.         It appears true that this Fibrillose dark green trailing was the subject of the protection in the S. & W. Registration 336502  -  a Registration that appears to have nothing to do with Stuart.
Any Hardman & Price Regs. from 1846 - assumed to be textiles as quoted in the link - wouldn't of course show up in our usual list of CLASS III Registrations (for glass)  -  have to say I've no knowledge of Registrations being sold by a Registrant to another party - least of all c. half a century later  -  not impossible, but we'd need some provenance to substantiate that.       Although this darkish green trailing is very 'Stuart' from the late C19, the errors in description are cause for concern  -  is that Rd. No. etched, or is it a Dremel job?

Anyway, coming back to the piece here, I'm still inclined to go with Stuart.         

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Offline flying free

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2021, 08:49:41 PM »
OH!  do go back and get the bowl Paul.  I absolutely love these - the shape, there's something about that shape.  It's very attractive.
I do think it's S&W.

The Fibrillose decor has always mystified me.  I think it's entirely possible there were Bohemian makers doing a green trailed thing as well.
I've never worked out if Fibrillose is completely random messy, or more sparse than the examples I've seen and none of them look like a herringbone effect at all.  So are they actually Fibrillose?  Who knows?

I don't think that rd no is faked for what's it's worth.  Maybe just an error in transcribing it?  I think it's S&W anyway.

RE the original piece.  Did Stuart have any other example of this 'broken' pull up trail though?  I agree the rim and the shape and colour green look quite Stuart.  However if we know that 'Fibrillose' vase is S&W then their green could also pertain to the vase in question I think.

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Offline flying free

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2021, 10:47:08 PM »
Just in case of any future confusion Paul, I think you accidentally wrote Reg.  336502 when discussing the Fibrillose vase I linked to that has a reg design number engraved on the bottom but you meant Reg. no 366502 .  Just in case someone looks it up later.


   

But - as for the second linked item, there is something very adrift IMHO.          Reg. 36652 - which would occur c. October 1885 - doesn't appear in either Slack or Thompson.      However, Reg. 336502 dated 20th November 1900, was allocated to S. & W., and described by them -  as m points out - as 'applied trailed veins of dark green glass as diagonals  ...... to produce a rough herringbone effect.'             Reynolds doesn't show an example  -  Gulliver reproduces a small b. & w. drawing which he has obviously copied from the original factory drawing now at TNA, Kew.         It appears true that this Fibrillose dark green trailing was the subject of the protection in the S. & W. Registration 336502  -  a Registration that appears to have nothing to do with Stuart.
Any Hardman & Price Regs. from 1846 - assumed to be textiles as quoted in the link - wouldn't of course show up in our usual list of CLASS III Registrations (for glass)  -  have to say I've no knowledge of Registrations being sold by a Registrant to another party - least of all c. half a century later  -  not impossible, but we'd need some provenance to substantiate that.       Although this darkish green trailing is very 'Stuart' from the late C19, the errors in description are cause for concern  -  is that Rd. No. etched, or is it a Dremel job?

Anyway, coming back to the piece here, I'm still inclined to go with Stuart.         

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Offline flying free

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2021, 10:54:50 PM »
seller has this mushroom posy vase as S&W.  I don't know if it is but the decor is the same as OP's bowl
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313223925201

S&W were big fans of threading and trailing.  I'm not so sure Stuart were in the same type of trailing as this?

However ... have to say the shape still feels very Stuart.

This IS a Stuart vase - adding it for the trail green colour comparison though I appreciate it's hard to compare colours online:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334051187686?hash=item4dc7009be6:g:HnwAAOSwQlVg02SW


OTOH - What is this then?  The museum has it as James Powell - looks v similar to OPs bowl (It's a jug threaded on the bottom half)
https://barnsleymuseums.art.blog/2020/12/14/the-art-of-glass/

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2021, 09:14:35 AM »
apologies m  -  I copied from Reynolds, who has written 336502  -  Thompson, Gulliver and Slack all show the No. correctly as 366502  -  why did I pick the wrong author to quote (though he shows the correct date of Registration).     So, if anyone has Reynolds book, you might care to change the Rd. No. for 'Fibrillose' to read 366502 - page 74 Appendix B.
As a matter of personal thought, I don't see this Registered Design as being remotely like herringbone  -  what I see is a random applied trailing without any recognizable pattern.    The odd thing is that Reynolds says of this invention .........  "In 1901 J. S. Williams with John Northwood developed this interesting glass making technique ................ etc. "      quite how that fits with the fact that the Company had already Registered Fibrillose the year before seems a bit odd.

Sorry, forgot to say that the bowl I've seen - matching your third linked item  - is in clear and not green, unfortunately.      This might work in my favour insofar as the rest of the public might not give it a second look :-\

W/Fs seem to have produced most of their threaded pieces - threading similar in fineness to the pieces here - in the 1930s, and they seem to have used at least half a dozen different greens at one time or another, so difficult to be precise on that issue.         Trying to stay on topic for the OP, since I've digressed too much and coming back to the OPs bowl, it's the waisted shape of the bowl that give most problems when comparing to Jackson and the big book.     Perhaps from a fashion point of view, the factory appear to have avoided such an outline shape during the time they were producing threading, and since attribution relies heavily on sourcing provenance from factory catalogues and books  -  and I can't find anything that matches this shape, then it looks to be a dead end for the time being.     It might be worth OX151 contacting the MoL and requesting their help with this one. 

The 'James Powell carafe c. 1884' in the Barnsley Museum is, we assume, id'd correctly, and the use of trailing by the factory goes back before that date, though it has to be said that the threading on the carafe is very much out of character for the period in question  -  most of the material produced at the date suggested were the opal colours, styles from antiquity, and the odd tear or prunt.    The threading looks to have more in common with the C20, but we won't argue with the museum. ;)         It's always a problem with high end pieces when individuals or museums omit to provide provenance for their attributions  -  we tend to take museums at their word, but it would be very helpful to us collectors and wouldn't take any time at all, just to confirm the source of the attribution by providing a little bit of text.

Perhaps Anne (Mod.) might correct my error on the Fibrillose Rd. No. some time  -  thanks. :)   

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Offline flying free

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Re: Glass Bowl ID Help - James Powell?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2021, 09:32:40 AM »
hmm, Museums sometimes get things wrong though and anyway, with no pattern no ids given as research sources, it's important to have another look at the id's on some items in museum collections :-[  In addition to which, there is still no shape to match to a WF id yet for the OPs bowl.

The wavy rim of the bowl is characteristic of Stuart.  However I only have about 30 Stuart id'd pieces in resources to search for comparisons and they are all from about 1907 ish.  None have that number of waves on the rim, none are the same shape as OPs piece and none are in that decor.

I think S&W is a possible contender still for both OPs piece and the jug in the museum   :-X


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