Topic: Amethyst cased and cut glass jug

[bat20]

Hi, this 7” tall jug is heavy with a wide polished pontil and a lot of wear.The cutting is deep and the handle is also cut in the manner of regency cut glass with cutting on the rim aswell.Always dangerous to guess but I’m wondering if it was made between 1830 to 1850 ,perhaps English ?There are a few inclusions here and there, but it strikes me as a quality piece.My first thought was VSL ,but I don’t think it is,as always I could very possibly be completely off !!,any thoughts ,thanks .

[bat20]

Handle

[bat20]

   Just as an update and hopefully of some interest to those interested in the history of British glass,I’ve found myself reading through the chapter ,in the excellent Hajdamach book on British glass 1800 to 1914 ,on the Bohemian connection(chapter 4).The British cased glass was a reaction to Bohemian cased glass coming onto the world market place,which by 1840 the English firms from the midlands were producing in numbers,Richardson being in the forefront and in this chapter there are some examples.I think the windows on the neck of my my piece do have a bohemian glass look to them.
  I’m more than happy to be corrected on my thoughts in the pursuit of knowledge so please chip in with your thought,I could easily be way off !!

[bat20]

I think the handle could be the biggest clue to dating this jug and last night I came across some information on handle types whilst reading The Hall Marks of English Glass by R.Wilkinson.This type of handle is dated as being used from 1780 to 1830.This would hint at this piece being a very early example of British cased glass.I have no idea if there was a revival period for handles like this ?,or if was used on the continent at a later time scale?…for reference ,page 21 fig 2

[Ekimp]

I haven’t got Wilkinson, is he talking about a top down handle as opposed to a bottom up attachment or something much more specific? As I understand it, you won’t find a bottom up handle before approx late 1860s when the preference transitioned to attaching the handle from the bottom up. You could still find top down handles after this time. A bit like not finding a polished pontil before a certain date but a rough pontil could still be found from any time. Andy McConnell says the bottom up type handle “...became standard practice at British works during the 1870s”.

For example, if you look in Hajdamach page 185 plate 166 jug dated 1862 and page 192 plate 178 jug dated early 1870s, the handles look much the same as yours.

[bat20]

Thanks for the input Ekimp!,interesting.Don’t think one can take book images and post them so I’ve tried to copy his drawing and text.

Row 1:Handles representing variations of the crude stuck on handle,and two types of round handle and flat looped handles.1640-1680


Row 2:looped rib handle 1740-1780..Heavy handles of many shapes suitable for cutting,and a lighter handle suitable for many small articles 1780-1830

Row 3:By 1830 the method of fixing handles is changed.All handles prior to this date were joined to the article first at the top and then finished at the bottom.Now the handle is fixed first at the base of the article looped upwards and finally is fixed to the top.Last item is a modern handle.


Obviously with exceptions taking your example into account. The handle on my jug is cut with the cutting marks easily visible.It would be interesting to see other handles images if possible ?interesting subject.

[bat20]

Sorry middle of row 2,looks like mine .

[Ekimp]

Thanks for taking the time to do the drawing. There is something similar for dating pewter measures and mugs etc, maybe they followed similar styles.

The date Wilkinson gives of 1830 for the change from top down to bottom up conflicts with the 1870ish date I’ve seen everywhere else it’s mentioned. There are lots of examples in Hajdamach of top down handles post dating 1830 but don’t think he shows any bottom up handle before the late 1860s. Same for McConnell The Decanter (quick flick through). There is an illustration from the Great Exhibition 1851 and the five jugs shown there are all top down.

Some handles here, including applied to a pressed tumbler dated 1854: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46955.msg264061.html#msg264061

In this topic there are jugs that interestingly have the same acid etched resist transfer pattern but with different style handles: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,30250.msg392078.html#msg392078

[flying free]

I think the handle could be the biggest clue to dating this jug and last night I came across some information on handle types whilst reading The Hall Marks of English Glass by R.Wilkinson.This type of handle is dated as being used from 1780 to 1830.This would hint at this piece being a very early example of British cased glass.I have no idea if there was a revival period for handles like this ?,or if was used on the continent at a later time scale?…for reference ,page 21 fig 2

Honestly, I really don't think this dates to that early.  The wide polished pontil mark is interesting.  I had wondered if it might be from Cristallerie St Louis but not sure about the design on the cut to clear pattern or the rim.  Didn't Thomas Webb do a scalloped rim like that?  I know S&W did cut to clear glass.  Not sure about TW but presume they did.

That handle is interesting.  Not cased and also looks quite chunky for the jug in my opinion.  Is it facetted/panel cut at all?  On a Bohemian piece that handle would be facet cut or panel cut I think.  I think the whole piece looks as though it dates to the 1930s but I could be way out.

That said, date wise I would think it would be much later than you are indicating. 

[bat20]

Thanks for the input and I hope in my posts I haven’t come across as adamant about it’s attribution,it’s more about getting there in the end .We have a very thick handle with sharp cutting most commonly seen up to about 1830,mossy wear looking a tad older than 1930,anthemion motif (I think?)described as being used during the period Hajdamach describes in the chapter on ‘the bohemian connection ,in the same chapter plate 57 shows glass with similar cutting,with an obvious bohemian influence…Come on guys you know I’ve always had to learn the hard way !😂😂