Topic: Help With ID for Pair of Hanau Silver Mounted Bohemian Specimen Vases Please

[APEXantiques]

Hello ladies & gents,
     
      I recently came across this lovely pair of emerald green fading to clear specimen vases that to my eye appear to be almost certainly Bohemian in origin, dating to the last quarter of the 19th Century. As you'll note, each has a band of diamond pattern cutting towards the upper rim and the upper edges are mounted with what appear at first glance to be English Hallmarked Sterling Silver rims. Upon closer inspection however it becomes immediately evident that they most certainly are not English Hallmarks but what seem to be examples of the legendary Austro-Hungarian Hanau Silversmiths (so called) "Pseudo Marks" (for more info see https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html ).The cooler, form, style and cutting of the glass itself lead me to believe the vases were Bohemian though I am without any further proof however this would tie in perfectly with the maker of the mounts being Hanau based but as I am still yet positively ascribe a silversmith to the hallmark, my whole theory is nothing more than that!

 Finally to my question... Is anyone able to confirm or deny my theory &/or provide any further information or leads/direction of further study on these lovely little vases?

Many thanks to all who read and special thanks to those who may choose to answer.
Aaron L K from APEX

[Ekimp]

Hi, it’s hard to make out the detail in your photograph of the hallmarks but they look very like those for London 1904/5? That would also be close to your estimated age of the glass. https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Dates/London/Date%20Letters%20I.html

My understanding is that the glass was imported to England, then the silver rims were made and attached in England before retail, see here: https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/127999-mustard-tango-glass-vase-with-london-hal

[APEXantiques]

I'll post another photo, it is definitely not an English hallmark, the punch shapes are totally different for starters.

[NevB]

Apparently it was not unusual for foreign silver marks to be overstamped with English ones. The lion rampant, i and what looks like a leopard's head do appear to be the London mark for 1904.

[APEXantiques]

I would have thought people knowledgeable enough to render an opinion on the matter would be observant enough to notice that although there is a leopard head & a lion GARANT (not rampant), not only are the punch shapes different but the actual images are completely different from those used in the 1904 (or any) hallmark.

[APEXantiques]

So you can accurately compare
Note the difference in punch shapes, the lack of detail on the vase punches, even the way the area around the lion or leopard head is raised on the vase but punched in as one would expect on the example mark. The most important detail is the punch shape however. These changed with the year just like date letters did and are considered an extra layer of security when read in combination with the date letters.

[Ekimp]

I’m aware that the punch shape changed (presumably you’re referring to the shield shape). Observing purely from the supplied photograph of your rim, the shapes of the shields were made with the same shaped punches as for your clearer example in the latest photograph.

I believe the differences you see are due to the rim of your vase being such a very thin gauge of metal. The thin metal wouldn’t take the impression from the punch as well as something more solid, plus it is more likely to loose definition due to wear and minor denting. If you look at other similar thin rims you will see the hallmarks affected in the same way. Below is an eBay link to an example of Birmingham hallmarks with similar “raised” areas you mention.

We can agree to disagree It might be worth enquiring about the hallmark on specialist silver forums, it would be interesting to hear what they say.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196260539106?itmmeta=01HRFM605SQEYT8ZWS97S9KAWD&hash=item2db20a2ae2:g:KkUAAOSwQudl2NDx&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0KlmQ0Jage5rmLU47k3euhrYR8E2VG%2F25BMy%2Bd7PJ8XJPkTRHH4k8%2B3yo7DsiWDjBLoX3f9LrpCmoxeVmSNiiVHqQqv3S2bTKU1tyg0mxJ3ZhdqRPFSOF1RQgsMsgL%2B9TJEDmSUg5VEJh3KKwTNYGm8IbGmTWifMSqtiIlUz5CGp5IKi56%2FdoxVLgll%2BGp4hFHtQX1b6ZEXeFWn4EwbJLATQO%2FQHD9QkwKsKuz5N4p%2FSlZeMnng4vxnhuZe2PGqoty7nK28DvdetQKaD9L9fLTM%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4CDmPTDYw

[APEXantiques]

I have been involved in trading silver for almost 20 years (Sheesh, scary!!! First time I've ever worked out how long I've been at it) and am beyond familiar with the English Hallmarking system and (though I live to learn) would be shocked if these were genuine English hallmarks for any year.
Firstly, you'll note that all three punches on the example are the same shape (outline), this is not the case with the vase.
For example, If you look at the leopards head for example, notice how on the example the punch is only pointed at the bottom & has an "m" like shape at the top? On the vase, it is pointed at both the top and the bottom. Each of the punches has similar inaccuracies.
I posted here as I was hoping someone would have specific knowledge of whomever may have been making these kinds of vases &/or the company that may have been mounting these kinds of vases (specifically). Alas I think I was aiming a bit high with the kind of information I sought.
Additionally, there is no registered makers mark that matches the mark on the vase.

[NevB]

My mistake on the lion rampant, I assume you mean lion GARDANT. As for the vase itself it is difficult to attribute a specific maker, there were several who made this sort of thing, it's not a shape I've seen before. A few examples here.

https://www.thegildedcurio.com/

[APEXantiques]

Unfortunately atrocious spelling comes with the territory growing up with ADHD (now growing old with it!!).
So we are in agreement that they were in all likelihood made in Bohemia towards the latter part of the 19th or very early 20th Centuries correct?
As it happens, technically we were both wrong about the lion... Despite what the hallmark literature says, it is actually a lion Passant. Passant, Gaurdant, Regardant refers to the position of the lions head (Front, side...as in looking at the viewer and back... looking towards it's tail respectively). That's all without even touching on the position of the lions feet!
This kind of reinforces my point (VERY loosely) ... Even though not immediately apparent, it's the the very minor details like the combination of font, case, punch shape etc that confirms the validity of a mark in the English Hallmarking system. If just one of those things on one of the punches is not correct, it invalidates the mark entirely.
It really is an ingenious system, almost like the 1500's version of 2 factor authentication for Sterling Silver. I guess at the time it was instituted, silver was still regarded as money so they needed a system as watertight and foolproof as minting a coin for authenticating and certifying it's authenticity.
Gone are the days that the word Money & the word Silver are synonymous unfortunately. Most people these days would have no idea that £1-  (1 Pound Sterling) actually represented One (troy) Pound of .925 (92.5% Pure) Silver and that each division thereof (6d, Shilling, Florin etc) was a division of the weight of that Pound of silver. (20 Shillings, 40 6d or 10 Florins in fact!).
Anyway, I'm off topic now!!!