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Carafe ID Whitefriars or Stuart?

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Keith Mick:
Hi.
Found this small carafe on our travels which I recognized as either Whitefriars or Stuart. Having checked online its all a bit confusing. There's one or two examples marked "Stuart England" but also more which are unmarked and claimed as Whitefriars. One is pictured in the Leslie Jackson book which looks to have vertical ribbing which mine doesn't. Are these "Whitefriars" carafe's just miss identified unmarked Stuart examples or did Whitefriars make some without ribbing?
It seems that Whitefriars may have started making things like this around the 1880s, the Stuart versions must have been made into the 1920s to explain the marked examples.
Mine's slightly oval when viewed from below and stands about 18cm high.
Anyone have any thoughts on ID,
Cheers
Keith

essi:
I would vote Whitefriars. comparing the two factories on google images the ring collar and the side embellishments on the Whitefriars glass seems finer than the Stuart glass.
As for the vertical ribbing i'm not sure.
Tim

Paul S.:
a shape usually described as 'leather bottle' design/pattern.        I've looked through Jackson but wasn't aware of seeing this shape, but there is one shown in Evans, Ross, Werner (the big book) - page 261 - and the reference is 'catalogue B - 1870s'  -  unfortunately, the example shown appears to be wheel engraved and the rigaree runs down almost the entire height (starting a little below the waisted neck).      No idea if this comes under the heading of Roman, Venetian, or Art Deco  -  perhaps it's more Venetian, though I've never owned one so speaking entirely from the point of view of the books.            As a design, this 'leather bottle' shape seems not to have been a rare pattern in that period - see link here ..........
https://scottishantiques.com/victorian-table-glass/decanters-flasks-carafes/Whitefriars-Leather-Bottle-Glass-Carafe  -  but have a feeling the shape is ancient - as in hundreds of years ancient.
To the best of my knowedge, W/Fs never marked their glass - as in marked with a stylus, acid or sand blasted etc., but they did apply small paper labels, though whether they did this in the latter part of the C19 I've no idea.
The first Stuart Reg. I can see in 'The Glass Association Blue Book' is December 1908 - but what the item is I haven't a clue -  they then follow in infrequent dribbles up to 1920 - 21 when they literally cascade onto the page.             What page in Jackson does her example appear?
If you have a Stuart Reg. No. for this design, let me know and I'll check it out to see exactly how the original factory drawing appears - think I'd be very wary of buying one of these without the appropriate wear and other tell-tale signs of the right age.
P.S.   in the big book - although the illustration is very small - the vertical rigaree appears uniform in its shape and appearance down its entire length.

Keith Mick:
Hi Paul S.
The picture in the Jackson book is on page 30. Not the clearest picture, it may be a slightly different version with a square rim but it does have optic ribbing. The Scottish Antiques one also has the same vertical optic moulding,  they give a date of 1880.
I don't have the Wendy Evans book sadly.
If these leather bottle carafe's were produced over such a long period the designs may have varied over time, I just wonder when Stuart began making them and if at least some of the Whitefriars are not really Stuart examples.
Don't have a reg. no, just "Stuart England " marked I think. Out of interest do you know what those early Stuart marks where? I think "Walsh" just used their name.
Cheers
Keith

Paul S.:
thanks, you're correct - I've now seen the bottle in question on page 30 - it may have been the stopper that distracted me :)       If you take the whole bottle output of that period this shape appears very infrequently, and looks to be at odds with art nouveau and Venetian -  both very curvy - and just possible it owes more of a nod to Dresser and his 'Clutha' designs.        Agree, the picture is poor but am assuming the bottle is plain and undecorated, but whatever, this triangular shape seems to be scarce though used possibly more by W/Fs in the latter part of the C19 (and again by them in the 1930s and 40s) than other makers  -  certainly it's absent from McConnell, though there is some Swedish influence in the C20.           Can't say I'm seeing the optic ribbing, or come to that ditto on the Scottish Antiques example either  -  but then I am old ;-)
This funnel shape may have been produced 'over a long period of time', but within the Victorian period maybe 20 years was the maximum, but correct me if there is some evidence to the contrary  -  the art nouveau fashion (c. 1880 - 1915) seemed to pervade everything in terms of shape.    The 'leather bottle' shape may have been ancient, but it seems to have fallen out of favour in the latter part of the C19 when the Continentals discovered nouveau and everything became curvy.
According to 'British Glass between the wars', the word Stuart was Registered as a Trade Name in 1924, and, apparently, first used on glass in 1926  -  subsequently 'Stuart England' was used c. 1926 - 1950, with further variations at later dates  -  but, as folk have commented at various times, these dates need to be read with some caution.
Are you able to post a picture of the Stuart 'leather bottle' - a marked piece, obviously?            I know nothing of Stuart's production of this design - only ever seen and owned the traditional shapes etc., and certainly never owned any really old W/Fs glass.

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