Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests > Glass
Carafe ID Whitefriars or Stuart?
Paul S.:
just to add ............ as far as the marks go, it may be a bit more complicated than we think - as mentioned a tad earlier, the first Stuart Registered design that I can see in the Blue Book - was 1908 (534388) ............. have just discovered there was another slightly earlier Registration in September 1906 (486685)! However, going on what I've taken out of the books, regarding the date of first use of Stuart marks (1924 or 1926), then presumably these 1908 and 1906 Reg. Designs won't have any backstamps - but I'd still very much like to see the original factory drawings. Reflecting on the general status of this 'leather bottle' design, and the date it appears to have been produced by W/Fs, then it would seem perhaps unusual to have been produced by Stuart twenty years down the line, when nouveau was all the rage. But some assumptions here which never helpful.
If anyone has pix of 486685 and 534388 would be great to see them.
Keith Mick:
Hi
The optic moulding is definitely a thing, the Scottish Antiques example mentions it in the write up. Seems like the sort of thing W F did around this period, dip mould and then blow out the shape. Doesn't follow that all of W F examples had it.
Did see a reference to Dresser in relation to this shape while I searched, not sure were now though! Think this cone shape was also briefly popular on British decanters between the wars.
Don't have any pictures myself but if you search "W F leather bottle carafe" Stuart marked examples come up as well. Looks like the early "Stuart England" mark with the wiggly tail coming down off the letter t. Still puts production into the mid 1920s. May be wrong but I don't think this is in the Stuart 1927 catalogue.
The unmarked examples seem very similar to the marked Stuart ones. They are largely hand made things so small variations will occur. Is it possible they were all made by W F and Stuart marked some as their own? Or did Stuart start making a very close copy of a slightly earlier W F design?
Perhaps any Stuart collectors out there may be able to shed some light on this.
Will keep digging, somebody out there may have the answer!
Cheers
Keith
Paul S.:
which 'wars' were these ? ;D ;D - assume that's the 1920s and 1930s? Optic moulding - I've forgotten a lot about these various decorative thingies, but take you word for it that these bottles were so made - all I'm seeing is plain glass. How are these cone shaped bottles made ? - is there a mould involved somewhere along the line - I've forgotten a lot of what I did know.
I'll go and have a look on line with the wording you suggest.
Yes, now seen the 'Stuart with wiggly tail plus ENGLAND, and as you say, this will be post mid 1920s so definitely not Victorian, and I'd imagine this will be an item for which there is a genuine Registered Design No. ............. I shall have to investigate at Kew some time.
Anyway, sorry we're no further forward as to a conclusion of your question.
Keith Mick:
Yes, sorry should have said world wars. I know Stuart, Thomas Webb and Webb Corbett all made conical decanters, probably other companies.
Not a expert but my understanding is from the furnace the glass is blown into a small or dip mould which creates the required optic effect. Then after going back in the furnace briefly it would be blown into the full mould which in this case is our smooth cone shape. This has the effect of leaving the outside smooth but the inside still retaining some of the optic effect of the dip mould. Fascinating and mind blowing trying to work out how glass makers produce some of the effects you see.
Another thought occurs, perhaps this type were all Stuart made in 1910s 1920s and only the later ones were marked. Then the unmarked ones were believed to be W F because they made similar things. I've no access to the factory drawings in the Wendy Evans book. Not sure what years are covered or how good the drawings are.
Anyway thanks for your help.
If you come across any info would be interested to know
Keith
Paul S.:
possibly I'm confusing things .............. there may be some C19 W/Fs factory drawings in the 'big book', but what I'd meant by my comments - about drawings - referred only to the Stuart factory drawings that relate directly to their Registered Designs in 1906, 1908 and later ones up to and beyond the 1920, that were submitted to the Board of Trade - the drawings that are located at Kew.
I could be very wrong, but have a feeling that W/Fs didn't submit any drawing to the Board of Trade - meaning that there aren't any W/Fs Registered Designs at all.
I have pix for virtually all Reg. Designs from c. 1840 to end of the C19, but never got around to snapping those after that date - and post 1900 for sure is where you will find the Stuart pix at Kew referring to your conical bottle.
My Reader's Ticket expired some two or three years back, so will need to renew - will of course let you know as and when I find the post 1900 Stuart pix covering this leather bottle design.
As we know, some designs are copied many years down the line - using either original moulds or not as the case may be. The attached is an example of a Stuart design for a handled claret jug which I found in recent weeks, locally. It's marked with Reg. No. 681269 - one of three Nos. allocated to Stuart on 21st February 1921 - a period when they were very active with the Board of Trade. It carries a matching No. 8, which for the body is in fact near the top of the handle.
But there's no way this piece was made in 1921 - far too unmarked, too clear and clean by far - it has just the word Stuart on the base (though I suppose it might have been in Granny's cabinet for one hundred years) ;) Some Stuart Reg. Designs are known to have been produced continually for 60 - 70 years - designs such as Woodchester and Strafford Rings.
Let's hope that given time we can nail the details for this Stuart leather bottle. Makes you wonder though, had W/Fs Registered this particular pattern if that might have prevented Stuart from using the same design.
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