Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Margi on October 09, 2009, 05:49:41 AM
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Good morning all
I have some more items that were sold to me as ashtrays but I would like them to be wall bricks/pavement lights one of them in particular I have a huge suspicion is definately a wall light as it is embossed with Lumax and I can see from research that Lumax is a lighting manufacturer/distributor. The dark green one I really am not sure. One of them you may recognise from a previous topic. Please could you comment as item 1, 2 and 3.
Item 1 previously discussed 13.5x13.5xapprox5.5cm with prism interior mint/aqua colour
Item 2 embossed with Lumax I have two of these just over 11x11cm and height 6cm clear but with a very slight tinge of green
Item 3 no markings 11x11x3.5cm dark green with sloping interior and double band.
Many thanks
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The Lumax looks a bit to massive production for any of the various and relatively young lighting companies using Lumax as a name/trademark today. It could still be an promotional ashtray. Was used by Ceag Limited (UK) in 1950/60s (Car lighting). Also used in US, France and Germany and is a name that could have been in use for a long time although it does not yet figure in my lighting maker database. Signs of wear? Bigger images might help.
The green thing looks a bit like a counter tray but odd it lacks a name and has the central ridges.
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I hope these are better pictures of the lumax one. I have pictured the one with lots of wear on but the other shows hardly any.
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Sorry I also meant to ask what is a counter tray. I researched it but all I can find is something to do with beverages which makes no sense to me.
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Try searching on "glass change tray" or "glass change advertising tray". There are usually some on offer.
Is there a slot in the middle that would hold a menu card? In which case it could be a dual function menu card holder and ashtray, like the Dunhill Prong Ashtray, see here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,25306.0.html).
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi no there is no where for the menu to go, the band in the middle would not hold a hair never mind anything else. I will go check out the change holder that is more feasible.
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The rim around the bottom of the Lumax is odd for an ash tray although the wear is consistent with such a use. It is really too thick to be a lighting component so I would tend to stick with advertising ashtray.
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I would like them to be wall bricks/pavement lights one of them in particular I have a huge suspicion is definately a wall light as it is embossed with Lumax
Margi,
IMO, you are very near the mark with the Lumax items, but suspect they are pavement lights rather than wall lights or ashtrays. The flange/rand would allow these to be pushed into a steel (or more likely cast-iron) frame, with a thin layer of cement/grout, the flange actually sitting on grout and within the frame. Frame would then be put in position, flanged, flat side up,(ie, pedestrian friendly surface), permitting light to pass from trottoir vers cellier. Allegedly, these were designed in 1930 by the French and Swiss architect-designers, Charlotte Perriand (Fr) and Le Corbusier (Ch) in 1930, so architectural use is more than possible, and likely to have been of contemporary french manufacture.
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My guess is that two of these are not pavement lights since they do not have any sort of ridges on the sides. The modern sort of pavement light (post-1900 or so) were set in concrete instead of iron frames, and to aid adhesion and to keep them from being able to slip out of their sockets, they have ridges in the glass, much like Isorex insulators have interior ridges where they are cemented. Here is a pic of three typical pavement light lenses:
(http://glassian.org/GMB/ridges.jpg)
Modern glass wall blocks have lips at the edges and are not completely smooth either for the same reasons. Your Lumax block does have a small ridge, and 4" square is about right for pavement lights. It has a clean sort of modern look like the post-1940s UK style. The name Lumax is of course a large hint that it's meant to transmit light somewhere, somehow.
Take a look at Watchrod's pavement light here (http://www.watchrod.com/pavlights.html).
--ian
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The rim around the bottom of the Lumax is odd for an ash tray although the wear is consistent with such a use. It is really too thick to be a lighting component so I would tend to stick with advertising ashtray.
My experience with pavement lights is that the leftover ones tend to end up to people's desks are paperweights, and one like this would be perfect for storing paperclips or loose change etc-- so they tend to see wear patterns different from those that actually saw service.
I've bought them as "ink wells" before, and various other things, but mostly "paperweights". Your worn Lumax seems to have more wear inside that mere paperclips would cause, but that's still my guess. But, 50 or more years of loose change or pens or souvenir vacation pebbles might do it-- time will wear anything down.
How thick is the "bottom" of the Lumax? To be a pavement light, it would have to be heavy.
--ian
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The base from the 1st level is approx 1.5cm and from the bottom of the ledge it is only .5cm. I see what you mean re the scratches inside the item as there is only a couple, nearly all of the scratches that are visible on the pic are from underneath the base. The item weighs 2.25lb
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Assuming your Lumax piece was French, I Googled "lumax verre" and immediately found an auction for a similar piece, though with different proportions: GRAND VIDE POCHE BRIQUE DE VERRE LUMAX LE CORBUSIER n°1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=310171371536)
The description reads: "Grand vide poche carré en brique de verre signé LUMAX design par Le Corbusier, rare grand modèle, bon état générale, peu de trace d'usage, un petit choc au dessus (ph.5). Belle pièce design à saisir pour collectionneur et amateur. Hauteur 10 cm ; cotés 14 cm. Un autre LUMAX plus petit est en vente sur le site Consultez mes autres objets!"
Claimed to be designed by Le Corbusier, this might well just be excessive salesmanship. Prism tiles in the US are sold, 99% of the time, as designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, though they generally are not.
This same dealer has another one similar to Margi's. They want 30 euros for the big one, which is too much for me at this time (when considing postage also).
There are also three different ones for sale on leboncoin.fr (http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/51704865.htm?ca=12_s). All three are being sold as ashtrays, though none of them have the usual grooves where coffin nails might rest. Prices are from 7 to 20 euros.
To muddy the water even further, one of them has an ugly painted band around it with lettering AIR INTER, as if it were a desk accessory; this may just be a very similar item, which wouldn't be unusual since it's a plainish design, basically just a deep hollow square dish.
Another of them has the description "ENDRIER VIDE POCHE LUMAX LECORBUSIER PERRIAND. Utilisé par LE CORBUSIER/PERRIAND dans leurs décorations dans les années 50. Inscription LUMAX dans le verre (épais) - Verre épais (1 cm) et transparent -14 x 14 cm sur 8 cm de haut. Vendu en l’état – des eraflures et des éclats", so they claim it's a 1950s era desk piece.
One of these three, the one marked Lumax and shown from the side, looks very pavement-lightish to me.
The water is fairly muddy now. Ash tray? Deck accessory?? Or pavement light???
I would rule out cendrier since they're missing the functional grooves. The AIR INTER one seems like a bad desk accessory. The Lumax marked ones seem like pavement lights. If the Lumax ones do have thick "bottoms", much thicker than needed to perform a mere desk accessory job, then I'd say pavement light. If they have thin "bottoms" then they would be unsuitable for use as pavement lights.
--ian
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Could I also add as I nor anyone else has mentioned that the Lumax ones have a large circle on the base, visible on my 1st close up shot it actually likes like a crack but that is part of the circle. I thought it was wear marks but both of mine have it.
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Can you add a pic/pics showing that circle better?
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Can you add a pic/pics showing that circle better?
...and how thick is the "bottom"? A pic straight from the side would be helpful.
The scratching etc looks very much like "shelf wear" to me, what you'd expect from something that's been on a desk for many years. Wear from actual pavement light service would be much more severe, usually causing the entire "bottom" to look sand-blasted.
A search on ebay.fr for corbusier lumax (http://desc.shop.ebay.fr/i.html?_nkw=lumax+corbusier) turns up six auctions of the same type object, two of which show decoration at the bottom of the hollow, and one of which has a god-awful leather band around it, even uglier than the painted AIR INTER one, making them clearly "decorative".
The tide has turned, and they appear now to be desk thingies disguised as pavement lights or small half-wall-blocks.
--ian
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What about your original item#3? I have't seen any large pics of it yet. There's still hope of a pavement light in this bunch. --ian
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A closer look at the AIR INTER one shows that it's not painted, but another leather band. Truly unattractive. These look far nicer with just plain clear glass-- less is more-- no painted sailboats or anything. Colored glass or cloud glass might be nice too. Of course, others will prefer the sailboats and leather bands. There's no explaining taste.
BTW if you're wondering what I'm doing screwing around on the computer all day instead of working, the weather's finally broken and it's nasty & rainy outside-- perfect for huddling over a hot machine.
--ian
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Circle pics as good as I can get them as requested by Frank.
Large one on its way
Weather nasty here too turned from 29 to 17 grrrr turning into an icicle >:(
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Here are the pictures of the green one. It weights 1.7kgs. Bevelled edges.
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brick 3
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Lacking the flutes for cigarettes would fit as something designed by Corbusier - his work was often severe. It would also be quite likely that he would have ashtrays in his portfolio... but finding verification. That there are so many references to this design as being his in France is not confirmation but I would be mildly surprised if so many got it wrong. There could well be a reference in one of the many books on his work.
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Or it was Charlotte Perriand who worked in the Corbusier Studio. Which would date it to pre 37. (Design if not your example)
It appears (I think) on a table here
http://www.designboom.com/history/perriand.html
and on kitchen counter here
http://designmuseum.org/design/charlotte-perriand
Lumax connection... I stick with advertising as not all so marked.
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Lacking the flutes for cigarettes would fit as something designed by Corbusier - his work was often severe.
There is minimal and there is too minimal. No grooves for the cancer sticks? Wouldn't they, erm... roll off? And burn your house down? This doesn't seem like good design. ???
I can't see it in the designboom/perriand photos (the équipement intérieur d’une habitatio one?), but it does seem to be on the kitchen counter. Speaking of kitchens, these do remind of depression-era refrigerator storage units from the US, which I have seen many nice examples of. They are often lidded and more decorative, such as this one for sale presently at rubylane.com:
(http://pics.rubylane.com/graphics/shops/collectiblesbyleeds/1696.1N.jpg?86)
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I think the Lumax pieces were used as lenses in lighting fixtures. Many older quasi-industrial fixtures used very heavy glass lenses that resemble these. I have some that were made in the US in the 30's that are similiar to these.
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I see the one on the counter (possibly) but the designbroom one, the only place that could be looks to have a cup in it - could it be a cup holder :24: :24: or did ladies only use dainty tea cups so they had to stick their little finger out ;D. Think a barrier has been hit on Lumax back to the dark green one if we may any more thoughts on that one?
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Hi Ian,
"Vide-poche" or "cendrier", are the French eBay equivalent descriptions for "nibbles dish" or "bonbon dish":
These are english and french euphemisms for "Clueless as to their real use"
M
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And in real terms "cendrier" means ashtray and "vide poche" means empty pocket or empty bag or another way of looking at it hollow pocket, something that items could be placed in which could be anything. So in other words all 3 items on this thread are nothingness just empty wotnots :-\
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How deep is the groove in the dark green one? Can you stand a postcard or photograph upright in it? A menu or wine list etc would be too thick, but a single sheet of something thinner? If it was just a nibbles dish, then once filled, the nice groove detail would be hidden, so that doesn't quite make sense.
Your heavy #3 doesn't seem like a pavement light for the usual reason, no grooves for locking it into the cement/concrete. It's thick enough for heavy traffic though.
These all seem too small for proper candy dishes, or nibbles dishes. You get this sort of thing meant for dresser tops too, to hold personal items, so it's right back to vide-poche.
Sklounion, I did look up cendrier in a French dictionary and it said ashtray. As I vault light collector I can say they get called all sorts of stuff, even insulators, but mostly "paperweight". Not ashtray yet, tho.
What's French for "thingy"?
Hi Tom-- when are you going to find me another pavement light mold? If I hadn't seen those Lumax dishes with all sorts of applied decoration I'd say yes, definitely could be light lenses-- but.... maybe the dreadful decorated ones are just aftermarket improvements? I've seen clear glass insulators with little painted scenes on the outside (no sailboats yet), could just be the same thing. Buy a case of surplus Lumax lenses cheap, slap a leather band on it and call it a desk accessory. "Lumax" is a pretty generic sort of name and it seems to have been used several times. Still no clear answer on this one.
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The grove is only about 1mm deep, have tried standing a photo, card, bank card all to no avail they fall over instantly so I tried two bank cards won't fit.
Thingy lets call it something = quelquechose
Thats what it is a "something"
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And in real terms "cendrier" means ashtray and "vide poche" means empty pocket or empty bag or another way of looking at it hollow pocket, something that items could be placed in which could be anything. So in other words all 3 items on this thread are nothingness just empty wotnots :-\
A 'vide poche' refers to its purpose, not shape. It is an item into which you 'vider' (= empty) your pockets. Something you might find on a bedside table for holding loose change.
My god! perhaps I should change my name to I know sumfink!!
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Thanks for that but isn't that exactly what I said - you empty your pockets and place it in the item that is "the hollow holder" but then again I shan't be padantic about matters.
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And in real terms "cendrier" means ashtray and "vide poche" means empty pocket or empty bag or another way of looking at it hollow pocket, something that items could be placed in which could be anything. So in other words all 3 items on this thread are nothingness just empty wotnots :-\
A 'vide poche' refers to its purpose, not shape. It is an item into which you 'vider' (= empty) your pockets. Something you might find on a bedside table for holding loose change.
Does anyone know where I can buy one of these things? I've just had another long search for my house and car keys!! Now if I had something to put them in when I take them out of my pocket in the evening, I might find them easily in the morning...
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Buy my one - infact why not buy all of them >:D
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Jeanneret, Corbusier both designed ashtrays/cendriers a few on ebay at mo can they all be wrongly attributed?
Corbusier = Lumax
Jeanneret could be the designer on the one which is the thickest. Still don't know on the green thingy.
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Jeanneret, Corbusier both designed ashtrays/cendriers a few on ebay at mo can they all be wrongly attributed?
Can they all be wrongly attributed? YES! It's definitely possible, though I am not saying it's necessarily so in this case.
I collect prism tiles (Luxfer etc), and pretty much every single one for sale is claimed by the seller to have been designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, which is just not true. This is called "salesmanship". Sellers try to claim, or at least mention, that whoever is most famous in that area of design had something to do with it (Tiffany, Corbusier, Wright, etc), if only just to attract more attention and searches.
Caveat emptor!