Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: David Hier on May 25, 2007, 10:55:03 AM
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On a recent visit to a charity shop I was lucky enough to stumble across a ruby vase by Powell (Yes, it's still possible - must be a blue moon or something ;)). The vase features a ribbon trail and is almost certainly designed by Barnaby Powell (Pattern No. 9030).
From what I understand, this vase was originally designed in 1935, but the design is featured in the pattern books for the following years:
1938 (http://whitefriars.com/catalogues/1938/index.php?pageNum_catalogue=4&totalRows_catalogue=246)
1940 (http://whitefriars.com/catalogues/1940/index.php)
1949 (http://whitefriars.com/catalogues/1949/index.php?pageNum_catalogue=1&totalRows_catalogue=109)
1957 (http://whitefriars.com/catalogues/1957/index.php)
1964 (http://whitefriars.com/catalogues/1964/index.php)
Does anyone know if there is any way of dating this particular item to a specific year of production?
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The catalogue pages you linked to don't work.
But I would say that it dates to between 1957 - 1964, as Ruby doesn't seem to crop up in the available catalogues before '57.
I might be wrong.
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links fixed (No quotes needed)
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links fixed (No quotes needed)
Thanks........I should have checked that the Links worked before posting.
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Hi, if it's the same as mine (link below) you can see the information I managed to find out about it... (yours may be a different size to mine) - oh and by the way, I found mine in a chariddy shop too ;)
http://www.pips-trip.co.uk/sold-items/sold-glass-1/showitem-WFRUBY-TRAILBP.aspx
And in answer to your question, I don't believe there's any way of being more specific datewise.
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But I would say that it dates to between 1957 - 1964, as Ruby doesn't seem to crop up in the available catalogues before '57.
I think that you might be right.
I have just checked and the earlier pattern books (1938 & 1940) specifically mention "Sea Green, Flint, Gold Amber, Emerald, Sapphire", "Blue on Sea Green", as well as "Amethyst". No mention of ruby.
There is no mention of colour for 1949, but the 1957 pattern book features the initials "F. A. G. B. T. R.". I would imagine that these correspond to colours and that the "R" stands for ruby. The 1964 pattern book only mentions the colour "Ruby".
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Hi, if it's the same as mine (link below) you can see the information I managed to find out about it... (yours may be a different size to mine) - oh and by the way, I found mine in a chariddy shop too ;)
http://www.pips-trip.co.uk/sold-items/sold-glass-1/showitem-WFRUBY-TRAILBP.aspx
And in answer to your question, I don't believe there's any way of being more specific datewise.
My vase stands at 18cm (7") and is identical to the following item listed with eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200037892993 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200037892993)
I don't know how anyone else feels about the price of the above item, but I can't imagine the seller getting the full asking price for their vase. The popularity of Whitefriars and Powell appears to be on the decline and I think that some of the 'silly money' prices being asked are simply unrealistic.
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I don't know how anyone else feels about the price of the above item, but I can't imagine the seller getting the full asking price for their vase. The popularity of Whitefriars and Powell appears to be on the decline and I think that some of the 'silly money' prices being asked are simply unrealistic.
Seems rather steep :o especially in the eBay market as it is right now (rock bottom) however I disagree with your statement about Whitefriars being on the decline - this isn't borne out with sales on my website where Whitefriars sells extremely well - my (smaller than yours) ruby trailed vase sold within 1 day of listing for a good price (although nothing on the lines of the above one). I researched my vase pretty thoroughly and although I could be wrong I think it came out in ruby earlier than 1957 - I'll see if I can find my research notes and look through some books to see how I arrived at my dates.
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The 1940 catalogue doesn't mention Ruby at all - although, admittedly, the 1949 and 1950 catalogues don't seem to list any colours whatsoever on the pages I can see.
However, Emmi's list of WF colours by year on the WFOrg site doesn't mention Ruby pre-1957.
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In the Lesley Jackson Whitefriars book it says ruby, as a main body colour, was introduced in 1940 (partly war-time austerity, it was soda-glass rather than lead crystal) and was used initially for the ribbon-trailed and wave-ribbed ranges only (pages 81 & 123).
robbo
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Pip was right then. ;D
Is there any obvious way of differentiating between soda glass and lead crystal (as I assume post-war Ruby was L.C.)?
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Nic, if I understand the book correctly, all WF solid ruby is soda glass. Twilight (1954) is also soda glass. When clear cased ruby appears (L Jackson says 1955) the casing is crystal. She doesn't seem to mention if the ruby inside the casing is LC or soda. I don't know if it would be possible to case soda glass with LC ???
robbo
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Pip was right then. ;D
... for a change ;)
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I don't know if it would be possible to case soda glass with LC ???
Impossible.
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You are all not looking hard enough!
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-40/p56.jpg
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-40/p57.jpg
Vidfletch
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You are all not looking hard enough!
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-40/p56.jpg
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-40/p57.jpg
Vidfletch
I couldn't see a date on those pattern book pages. Do you know what year they are from?
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They are 1940 catalogues pages. The "cat-40" part of the link gives it away!
Go here to see the catalogues;
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/GMIE-sm/whitefriars_catalogues.htm
Vidfletch ;D
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I was told by someone more familiar than me with the technicalities of some Whitefriars glass, that the textured ranges from the late 60's i.e. barks, coffins etc had a coloured soda glass inner and a crystal outer casing, thus making it possible to case soda with crystal. Too late tonight to get some further info on this, but will try to further clarify this in next few days. Emmi
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They are 1940 catalogues pages. The "cat-40" part of the link gives it away!
Go here to see the catalogues;
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/GMIE-sm/whitefriars_catalogues.htm
Vidfletch ;D
That's great thanks. I can now see where I went wrong. Once I found the pattern on page 3 (http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-40/p03.jpg) of the 1940 catalogue, I neglected to see if the pattern appeared later on in the same catalogue. As you pointed out, the 9030 pattern is listed in ruby on page 56 (http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/cat-40/p56.jpg).
Now I'm pretty much back where I started: Pattern No. 9030 (in ruby), designed 1935 and manufactured between 1940 and 1964.
Thanks for all the help anyway.
Incidentally, from the weight and ring of the piece I am fairly confident that the vase isn't made of Soda Glass. I will check the vase with a UV light later today.
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Now I'm pretty much back where I started: Pattern No. 9030 (in ruby), designed 1935 and manufactured between 1940 and 1964.
Which is what I said way back at the beginning of the thread in the link to my vase - just wondering now if I have a credibility problem ???
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Never a problem with me, Pip! :D
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;) Thanks David.
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Now I'm pretty much back where I started: Pattern No. 9030 (in ruby), designed 1935 and manufactured between 1940 and 1964.
Which is what I said way back at the beginning of the thread in the link to my vase - just wondering now if I have a credibility problem ???
Not at all, your comments were very helpful.
I'm a bit of a stickler for accuracy, so I do prefer it if I can see the original information (pattern book illustrations) for myself - or at least have a reference to work from.
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Of course its possible to case soda glass in crystal!!!!
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Hi, and welcome :)
This is an old thread maybe opinions have changed there are a few Glass Professionals around
Frank would love to hear if your opinion has changed over the years after your emphatic 'impossible'
Chris
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Be interested in glastitute's reasoning.
Certainly in the past you will never find soda-lime glass cased in lead crystal.
Today it is feasible as you can at least get matching coe of each type, however the viscosity of the glass still creates a problem. I would still think it unlikely that anyone has done it but would be interested to know if it has. Certainly some lampworkers decorate lead with soda but that is quite different from casing. Most lampworgers today tend to use boro-silicate which would also be a problem to fuse to other types. It would also seem an expensive thing to do as the lead batch would become contaminated. Lead fused to soda can appear visually OK but if viewed in polarised light the stresses that are created would show and this would create an unstable casing for a vessel. For artistic purposes these technical issues could be ignored.
Glass fusers are generally careful to ensure matching coe's but that is again different to casing. See http://ohgreg.hubpages.com/hub/Glass-Fusing-Basics---Is-All-Glass-Fusible
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Well I've done it and it happens more or less everyday at Broadfield house,Alistair Malcolms furnace is stocked with dartington,and I've threaded soad over whitefriars flc pieces,so yes the coe is more or less the same,its certainly compatible as I've done it on more than one occassion.
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But have you cased as opposed to applying?
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If you'd like me too I will,if it wasn't compatible the threading would have pushed away and not adhered,also Lesley Jackson states that cased ruby was soda cased in crystal,as I said earlier,Alistair Malcom cases crystal over soda nearly everyday at Broadfield,for you to say impossible is clearly wrong.
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Had modified the impossible above. Next question would be why does Alastair do it?
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Because the colour is gaffer soda and the clear in the furnace is dartington