Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: krsilber on October 17, 2008, 02:26:00 AM
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I just got in the post today a much-anticipated engraved goblet, and it's fabulous. The engraving is the finest quality of any I own. How I wish I had photos that did it justice, but these will have to do.
I believe this is Renaissance Revival style engraving. It is polished, though that's not obvious from my photos. Made in three pieces, not lead glass, very clear "white" blank. Rim is ground and polished. Large shallow ground and polished pontil.
FWIW, fluoresces a pale dirtyish yellow white.
I'm thinking early 19th C., maybe English?
Anyone have any ideas?
The detail photo is highly magnified, showing the tiny cuts that went into some of the small, thin curves. Ordinarily they aren't visible.
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I wanted to add a couple photos and comments, and give this a wee bump - maybe someone new will see it (I see by a search that Ming collects drinking glasses).
I no longer think this is early 19th C - I'm now guessing last quarter of it. However, in another thread Ming was saying that a very clear, "white" blank is 20th C. I don't know who would have engraved something like this then, though. One photo below shows the stem in comparison with my Lobmeyr (and a couple unknown Bohemian) pieces, which are notably greyer.
Also wanted to add that the foot has tool marks; a clapper wasn't used. The bowl looks mold-blown, very thin, with no tool marks.
I said before that it wasn't lead glass, but that may not be correct. It doesn't ring well, but that may not be significant.
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I have some etched glass (choice of wedding crystal) which was (is) distributed by bohemia glass. However, after I picked the pattern, I was surprised to find some with the same pattern, in my mother's china cupboard. When I asked her about it, she said that it had been my grandfather's. I'm thinking it may have come from their wedding (which was late 'teens, after the first world war). I have no idea who made it then and it is unmarked.
Carolyn
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I bet that was a surprise! I'd be interested to see the etched pattern.
Are you suggesting mine was a replacement piece or reproduction - something along those lines? It's possible, but the engraver would have had to be extremely skilled to do this, and what's more, extremely skilled in this style. I believe this is a museum-quality piece. When I put it next to my Lobmeyr, it makes the Lobmeyr look downright coarse! Tight curves with thin lines are very hard to do, and this not only has tight curves, the looping ribbons are composed of 3 lines: the flat, wider line and two very fine lines bordering it. That means that each loop might be made of 2 dozen individual, minute cuts - yet they look almost seamless to the naked eye. Even the relatively straight ultra-fine lines are difficult because of their shallowness. There's no room to go back and correct errors, like there is on deeper/wider cuts. The precision required is hard to imagine.
I haven't ever seen an example of engraving this fine, requiring the same kind of precision, on 20th C glass. I don't know if there were engravers capable of it.
That reminds me of something I read yesterday. Hawkes once got an order for some cameo (relief) engraved glass. He had several of his top engravers try to do it, and none of them were successful. They couldn't complete the order. Just an example of the different skills required by different types of engraving.
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Well, I have to admit I'm confused between etched, cut, engraved etc. Although my mental picture is that cut crystal is much deeper cuts and is much more common than etched. I believe my glasses are etched. I will try to give you a picture of the new ones and the old ones. Now, to do this properly, I put in a dark piece of paper, right? I will try to get some pictures this weekend. But where does engraved come into the continuum?
Carolyn
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Hi! Carolyn and krsilber
First to answer Carolyn's question about difference between etched and engraved: I won't bore you with technical details. Etch is a more recent and cheaper method to put a pattern on glass.
If you run your finger along the pattern if you can feel the pattern stick out then it is etched. Where as engraved is an actual cutting process.
Krsilber
From the colour , thickness and engraved of your glass. I don't think it is earlier than very late 19th c and may even be early 20thc. The pattern is certainly not typical Victorian. More like sort of Art and Craft period. Your glass is very nice but l think you are under estimated the skill of some of the past engravers. The products of the past engravers in England and Bohemia were so high and only you can go to the glass museum than you will see what l meant.Your piece is miles away from the museum type sorry to say.
Unfortunately, l do not any of these high standard engraved glass. But l do have a Victorian cranberry glass which has a very small lion head engraved on the bowl(great detail). I will put a photo in my next post when l able to sort out my camera.
Ming
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I just wondered when etching first dates from - anyone know?
(Thanks Ming - nice explanation for those of us still getting to grips with things!)
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Hi Kristi,
Firstly I know nothing about engraved glass but I do understand the amount of work that has gone into the cutting of your goblet.
Next week I will be seeing my friend who loves quality engraved glass. He has no computer but will be able to see your glass on my laptop.
I will report back with his comments................
All best wishes, Patrick. :) :) :)
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Patrick - that's great! If you (and he) want, give him my email address. I'd love to have someone to chat with about engraved glass. I was just telling a friend of mine, I didn't understand why I hadn't run across anyone who was interested in it.
Carolyn - etching uses acid to form the pattern, while engraving (a type of cutting) uses copper wheels with a slurry of oil and grit, stone wheels, and these days also diamond-impregnated wheels. If you look at engraving with a magnifying glass you can see striations created by the wheel (unless it's very highly polished). There are also often characteristic shapes created by wheel cutting, while etched patterns don't have restrictions on the shapes created. Usually etched patterns have not more than a few different depths (often only one) corresponding to the amount of time the glass was in the acid bath, while cut/engraved patterns can be any depth. I disagree that etched patterns feel raised.
Etching was first discoved in Sweden in 1771, but didn't really catch on until the mid 19th C; engraving has been around for thousands of years.
Krsilber
From the colour , thickness and engraved of your glass. I don't think it is earlier than very late 19th c and may even be early 20thc. The pattern is certainly not typical Victorian. More like sort of Art and Craft period. Your glass is very nice but l think you are under estimated the skill of some of the past engravers. The products of the past engravers in England and Bohemia were so high and only you can go to the glass museum than you will see what l meant.Your piece is miles away from the museum type sorry to say.
I'm afraid I disagree with some of the things you say. The design on my goblet is Renaissance Revival style, not Arts and Crafts. It was used extensively by Lobmeyr (for one) from about 1870-1890. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem to have been very popular in England, though I have seen some Pellat pieces that are reminiscent of it. I believe it was more popular in France, but I don't have the references for it.
I wasn't underestimating the skills of engravers of any period, I was saying that this particular style required a kind of skill that I haven't seen demonstrated by 20th C engravers. There were certainly many phenomenal engravers around in the early 20th C right up until today. But if you look at the designs they did you will find few examples of tight curves with fine lines.
Engraved glass is my particular interest, and I've seen a lot of it. I took hundreds of photos of engraved glass at the Corning Museum, and the quality of the engraving on this glass is on par with many of those examples. I don't know why you say the quality is miles away from pieces in museums.
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Okay, now I'm confused again. I was going to say that these were definitely engraved not etched, based on Ming's statements. But now KRsilber is saying that the definition is wrong. So where does that leave us. Now I must say that the design on the older pieces is much more elaborate and detailed. I cannot see any striations on either of them.
Here are some pictures...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11019
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11018
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11017
What do you think?
Carolyn
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Krsilber
Don't get upset from what l said about your glass. After all it is like a painting what you see may not be same as me. Glass is a very difficult subject to master as there is so many variables. After 5 year collecting glass l still have a lot to learn.
Here is what is engraved on a late Victorian cranberry glass and the lion head is half inch high
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/courtoak/Cranberry3.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/courtoak/Cranberry2.jpg
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Your piece appears to be acid etched. A common problem arises in the US. Probably 1/2 of all people use the term 'etched" interchangibly between acid etching & copper wheel cutting which is incorrect. Now as to the "raised" feel it's understandable because the sense of touch leads one to believe its raised due to the depth of the etching into the surface that may vary with the concentration & time of exposure the pattern is subjected to by hydrofloric acid, potassium fluoride & water.
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Your piece appears to be acid etched.
Which piece are you referring to, please? There are three different people in this thread who have posted images! - Krsilber (Kristi), Carolyn and Ming. :)
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Your piece appears to be acid etched.
Hi,
Are you talking about Kristi's goblet ???????????
To me it looks engraved/cut. Regards, Patrick.
(http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23519.0;attach=13503;image)
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Don't forget sandblasting, not relevant to pieces in this thread, see the list of dates of introduction (current knowledge) of various techniques here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6965.0.html). If you know earlier dates, please post there. Sandblasting is the dominant technique for engraving/etching today and can be combined with other techniques. The bottom line was the cost of production in a competitive market. But Stourbridge kept to traditional methods far longer than was healthy for the businesses. But fashion in the 1920s started to prefer simple styles of decoration and this resulted in the loss of the best skills. There are individuals around the world today who have recovered much of the highest skills but they mostly work independently. Steuben and Baccarat certainly continued the finest engraving to modern times and there was much done in other countries that is not well documented in the West. But as there seems to be a slow but steady resurgence in interest in cut/engraved (and other forms of post production decoration) this should start to get documented in the coming years.
p.s. a short link, as above, looks like this when you edit a message:
[url=http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6965.0.html]here[/url]
Some of the signs:
Sandblasting, under high magnification you can see the pits where the grit hit the glass.
Acid (unpolished) grainy appearance (magnified)
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Sorry I did not notice at the time that someone had posted after a prior discussion.Carolyn's piece was the one I was referring to.
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Frank...sandblasting...absolutely. The Tiffin Modern Glass line in the US used it on a regular basis. Below are a few examples.
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Carolyn - your piece is definitely etched. I've seen a very similar design a few times, but don't remember it ever being identified, so it's particularly interesting that you got yours from Bohemia Glass. I agree with Ohio that sometimes an etching may appear to be raised or may even feel raised because of the roughness of it (engravings are seldom very rough), but since it is a process of removal by the acid eating away at the glass it shouldn't actually end up raised. I used to be quite interested in etched glass and still have lots of it; it was a very common form of decoration of Elegant American glass. This site has many examples of etches: [LINK REMOVED] (search for "etch*"). Even here there is one I noticed that looks like a cutting rather than an etch (Columbine on a Bryce stem). I looked for yours in the Unknown Etchings category and searched for "thistle" but didn't see it, though there are similar ones there.
Ming - I'm not upset about what you said, and likewise I hope you're not upset with me, either! Part of the reason glass is so fascinating is because it's a neverending learning experience, and I, too, have lots to learn. I love your lion engraving - lots of character. Looks more like it would come up and lick your hand, rather than eat you! If you're interested, here's the link to some of my engraved glass in the Glass Queries Gallery (reminds me that the folder needs updating): http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=622&page=1
Ohio - I hadn't heard of the addition of potassium fluoride to the mix. Any idea what its purpose is?
(Aside: acid polishing to remove the greyness of cut pieces is a mix of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids, first patented by Richardson in 1857)
Frank - I'm a little confused by the list in the link you posted (thanks, BTW, for showing what the short-form link looks like). Is the list about techniques for applying transfers, or decorating techniques in general? For the sandblasting one, are you talking about transferring a stencil of some sort to make the design, which is removed after the sandblasting is done, or is sandblasting part of the process of adding a transfer?
Sandblasting and transfers are a couple of the types of decoration that aren't represented in the Queries Gallery folder, Decorations on Glass (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=667&page=1). I realized just two days ago that I have an example of sandblasting, but it's a very boring one. Maybe Ohio or someone else would care to add a better one (or give me permission and I'll do it)? I have a couple examples of decals, but it would be nice to see other transfer techniques there too.
There are individuals around the world today who have recovered much of the highest skills but they mostly work independently. Steuben and Baccarat certainly continued the finest engraving to modern times and there was much done in other countries that is not well documented in the West.
I didn't know Baccarat was still doing fine engraving. Looking at their website, I see a lot of cut glass and a few etched pieces (including the Michaelangelo (http://www.baccarat.com/en/home-decoration/decoration/vases/MICHELANGELO-VASE/product/MICHELANGELO-VASE-CLEAR-CRYSTAL--.htm), which has elements of Renaissance style, but looks etched to me.
Most of the best modern engraving seems to be sculptural, intaglio, and/or representative. There seems to be far fewer people doing copper wheel engraving, which is the hardest technique to master. Newer tools like hand-held Dremel or other rotary drills/engravers are commonly used.
Mod: Links to clicksnipwow removed as site is no longer connected to glass. Please visit http://chataboutdg.com/forums/ and use the search function instead
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There seems to be far fewer people doing copper wheel engraving, which is the hardest technique to master.
You are quite correct. Not only is it more difficult to master, it also takes the most time. We could probably sell twice as much of Katharine Coleman's work if she were able to produce more, but she can only engrave about 25 to 30 pieces a year! http://www.zestgallery.com/artists.php?display=5 :)
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http://www.gallery.cz/gallery/en/Vystava/1999_11/Ramec_V.html
Kristi, if you have not yet come across the work of Jiri Harcuba, you may find this link interesting
http://www.gallery.cz/gallery/en/Vystava/1999_11/Ramec_V.html
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Kristi...Aqueous solutions of potassium fluoride will will aid in the etching process
due to the formation of soluble fluorosilicates. I had it in some old notes that Consolidated used it along with hydrofluoric acid to form their etches. As for sandblast examples...the only ones I have are Tiffin & to be honest they are more of a cutting technique than what we normally consider etching so maybe they were not the best examples to use. I know Fenton uses sandblasting today in the items produced by Kelsey Murphy because she brought it with her from Pilgrim. As for engravers I'd put the various crews in Corning from the hand shops of Steuben, Sinclaire, Hoare, Hawkes, etc., & most of the engravers who were largely either Bohemian or French up against anybody, but thats just me. I honestly don't know of any US companies during the elegant period that used anything but hydrofluoric acid to etch glass. Ken
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Carolyn - your piece is definitely etched. I've seen a very similar design a few times, but don't remember it ever being identified, so it's particularly interesting that you got yours from Bohemia Glass. I agree with Ohio that sometimes an etching may appear to be raised or may even feel raised because of the roughness of it (engravings are seldom very rough), but since it is a process of removal by the acid eating away at the glass it shouldn't actually end up raised. I used to be quite interested in etched glass and still have lots of it; it was a very common form of decoration of Elegant American glass. This site has many examples of etches: http://chataboutdg.com/ (search for "etch*"). Even here there is one I noticed that looks like a cutting rather than an etch (Columbine on a Bryce stem). I looked for yours in the Unknown Etchings category and searched for "thistle" but didn't see it, though there are similar ones there.
If you follow this link, you will see a listing from replacements.
http://www.replacements.com/webquote/BOCTHI.htm?s1=6G&462995&&OVRAW=bohemian%20crystal%20and%20thistle&OVKEY=bohemia%20crystal%20and%20thistle&OVMTC=advanced&OVADID=34782112522&OVKWID=130061742522
As you can see, it is available and is made by BOHEMIA CRYST (*IMA) (not sure what *IMA means). But it does seem to be a current company ;D
I've always called it etched, so I'm glad I'm right (this time) :chky:
Carolyn
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Carolyn - That's great! I've wondered for a long time who did that etch. Never woulda guessed it was Bohemia.
Adam - how exciting to see someone currently using copper wheel! I've looked at her work before, admire it greatly, but didn't know she used copper. I see in her biography that they are no longer teaching it in UK schools, which I reckon is part of the reason it has become so uncommon there and elsewhere.
I was familiar with some of Harcuba's work, but that's an excellent site! Shows lots of it, and gives a nice detailed biography. Thanks for posting it.
Ken -
As for sandblast examples...the only ones I have are Tiffin & to be honest they are more of a cutting technique than what we normally consider etching so maybe they were not the best examples to use.
The folder I was talking about is for all (cold?) surface decoration techniques, not just etching. Some people call it etching; as a person who tends to make nice, narrowly defined pigeon-holes for terms (something I'm trying to get past!), I tend to agree with you. In any case, it's distinct from the acid etching Carolyn was asking about.
As for engravers I'd put the various crews in Corning from the hand shops of Steuben, Sinclaire, Hoare, Hawkes, etc., & most of the engravers who were largely either Bohemian or French up against anybody, but thats just me.
I agree and disagree. There were certainly very talented individuals working in Corning, but I think the skill among those in the crews varied quite a bit. I also think it's important to consider that the designs were tailored to the engraving of which they were capable. Perhaps there were people in Corning who could have engraved Dominic Bieman's portraits or Woodall's Moorish Bathers, I don't know. And maybe someone was capable of engraving my stem, they were just never called upon to do it. I've spent many hundreds of hours looking at photos of Corning engraving, and I've never seen anything quite as delicate. There are hundreds of individual cuts on it that are about a mm long, made with the finest of copper wheels.
Maybe I'm making more of my new stem than it deserves, I don't know.
Here's a nice example of a Corning piece in the Renaissance style (on the right). On the one on the left you can see some nice, tight, curves, but nothing like the ones on my glass! ;D Below that are a couple photos of George Woodall's Moorish Bathers, for those who haven't had the pleasure of seeing it. One of my favorite pieces of all time.
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I got an response from the V and A about this piece:
"Dear Kristi Silber,
Thank you for your enquiry. The polished engraving on your goblet is indeed of a very fine quality. I cannot be sure if it is English or not; many Bohemian engravers came to work in Britain during the second half of the nineteenth century, especially in the Stourbridge area. Similar polished wheel engraving was certainly practised by some of them, but I have not seen enough of their work to be able to say more, perhaps you could write to the Broadfield House Glass Museum as they know far more about local glass production during that period.
Best wishes, Reino Liefkes
Head of Ceramics and Glass"
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Hi Kristi,
I showed your goblet images to Ray Annenberg and he thinks English circa 1850 by Stuart or possibly Webb.
Small copper wheel engraved and very fine.............................
All best wishes, Patrick. :) :) :)
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Thank you very much for showing it to Ray, and thank him for me, too! When you do, would you mind asking him whether I might occasionally contact him about engraved glass? I have a couple pieces in particular that I've posted in forums and asked people about, but which are still total mysteries.
1850 - that's earlier than I would have guessed right now. That would be really cool if it's that old. (Whenever I talk about "old" glass around here, I become acutely conscious of the different perspectives of "old" between America and Europe.)
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Just in case anyone is interested, I have now talked to several people about this stem, and the consensus seems to be that it is Continental European (Bohemian or French most likely), last quarter of the 19th C. However, some of their reasoning has to do with the fact that the rim is ground rather than fire finished. After looking at it again I see a slight distortion and thickening near the rim indicating that it was in fact fire finished. It may have been ground down very slightly to remove fleabites, although there are some very fine nicks to it, so it would have been done some time ago. The other possibility is that it was ground when it was engraved to make the edge nice and crisp and perfectly even, since the band near the top would tend to accentuate any irregularities.
No one has any particular suggestions as to who made it, but most commented on the "very fine" engraving. :) (In the understated language of antiques, I take that to mean something along the lines of splendiferous. ;D)
I'd like to thank Jane Spillman from the Corning Museum of Glass, Roger Dodsworth of the Broadfield House Glass Museum, Trevor Brown of Cotswold Antiques and Glass, Birgit Bryant and Harald Rath of J.&L. Lobmeyr, Reino Liefkes of the Victoria and Albert Museum, and Ray Annenberg for their input. Also thanks to those who posted in this thread, and particularly Patrick, who showed photos of the piece to Ray.
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A fascinating post, I should pop in here more often. Your glass is very attractive I must say.
It has always been a vocabulary thing between USA and UK, whilst engraving to me is the general term for disturbing the surface of the glass for decorating, etching tends to be only refering to acid when in the UK.
I will sometimes combine drill, sandblast, diamond point and acid (paste) in one piece of work, as they all have very specific effects. Mostly, though, I will combine sandblast and drill as do a number of engravers in this country.
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Good morning (evening) Kristi,
I have seen this piece somewhere... so it indicates me this is the "Bohemian" piece, because in Czech rep. is rather random to see the glass piece produced elsewhere than here.
Problem is that in books are shown only the best and unique pieces so this quite "ordinary" one I have not found. The Lobmeyr is good suggestion, but note that this company was rather the busines and market organisation, not a real producer. Simmilar pieces had been produced in several rafineries in whole Bohemia on the end of 19th century.
I would say this piece is from the last quater of 19th century - we call it "historismus" time when the revival of "old styles" was very popular in central Europe. I would not put my hand to fire to confirm this, just a feeling.
Jindrich
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Lesley, nice to see you here! Yes, you should stop by more often! Love your work. I'm so glad there are people like you keeping the fine art of engraving alive. Engraved glass is my passion.
Jindrich - "ordinary"! Not at all. It's a rather ordinary blank, but engraving in this style simply doesn't get much better. Jane Spillman, curator at Corning Museum of Glass, called it, "a really fine example of Continental engraving." The head of Ceramics and Glass at the Victoria and Albert said, "The polished engraving on your goblet is indeed of a very fine quality."
And Lobmeyr (I talked to them, it's not theirs) - Lobmeyr was much more than a business and market organisation. They did have their own refinery during some periods (even made glass for a short time), as well as home shops working for them. But even when it was all farmed out to other companies, Lobmeyr (and sometimes artists working with them) did the design work, the most important part. From J & L Lobmeyr, Zwischen Tradition und Innovation (ed. Peter Noever): "Ludwig Lobmeyr doubtless was the decisive force in the reform of the Bohemian glass industry in the second half of the 19th century. In 1876, the German art critic [Friedrich Pecht] wrote about him: 'He represents the large Bohemian industry of this kind almost alone, and all the more rightly so, since he indubitably is its regenerator who lifted it from total depression and lead [sic] it to achievements which are all-out original, second to no time, nor country, superior to most...his entire production is based on his own discriminating taste and his considerable decorative talent.'" I love Lobmeyr glass, and it always makes me sad when people think of them only in terms of their business side.
So you've seen it before? Wouldn't surprise me if it's Bohemian. What other refineries were doing this kind of work?
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Hi Kristi,
it is lovely piece, without any doubts, I used term "ordinary" because the pattern is rather simple than sophisticated engraving oftenly shown in my books. I am trying to understand different types of glass than engraved, but I will ask experts from UMPRUM (Museum of Decorative Arts in Prague).
The best summary about Central European engraving masters I have found in Ullstein Gläserbuch by Gustav Weiß, Berlin 1972 (in German) for the moment.
Perhaps you could get some hints also from Glass museum from Passau in Bavaria:
http://www.glasmuseum.de
Now, however I am leaving for France to meet our friend Mr. Sklo Union Marcus :-)
Jindrich
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the pattern is rather simple than sophisticated
Ah, but that depends on your definition of sophisticated! ;) I think I know what you mean - the goblet is not covered with masses of engraving. It's a delicate pattern, neo-Renaissance (which I believe would fall under the rubric of Historismus), and it's polished. You're right that it's not the type of thing shown in books about Bohemian glass (the ones I've seen, anyway). Corning has an extensive collection of engraved goblets (many Bohemian) in a study area, and I took lots of photos, but can't find anything very similar there either. Nor have I seen anything like it online that falls within the right time frame. To me it seems extraordinary, rather than ordinary, because of the delicate, restrained, "simple" quality to it, during a period not known for its simplicity of glass cutting.
I meant to contact Passau, and completely forgot. Thank you for reminding me. And I was happy to see the book you recommended is quite affordable. Ich lese Deutsch ziemlich gut, solange als ich ein Wörterbuch dabei habe! Danke nochmal.
Have a good time in France with Marcus!