Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: eglass on June 23, 2009, 05:38:58 PM
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Hi you all! I bought this a couple of months ago, and haven't been able to find out much about it - maybe you all will have some ideas.
This tall (8.5") goblet has a beautifully done engraving of rearing stallions and an alarmed rider. The stem has a delicate ruby "ribbon" of glass twisted up through it, and the foot's nicely decorated as well. I normally don't buy damaged stuff on purpose, but this seemed too special - that little chip on the rim wasn't enough to keep me from being first in line at that Santa Fe estate sale, to get it. :)
Here's a whole page of pics since we can only upload 4 here, thought I'd save some server space. :)
http://www.enchantmentglass.com/engravedgoblet.html
Someone suggested a Czech engraver whose name escapes me at the moment, but I'll find the info and post it ASAP. I apologize if I don't get back to the board right away, but I will be back online tomorrow morning.
As always - many, many thanks.
Kelli
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Reminds me a bit of the Lipizaner stallions of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna. Very likely to be 19th Century Bohemian - and a quality piece too. Possibly earlier rather than later. Lucky you!!
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Malwodyn, thank you! I just don't have references for this era/type of glass so am pretty much at a loss to identify things like this. I'm grateful to be able to at least put it in a time bracket.
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Looking again at your pictures - which are really first class - I began to have doubts, thinking that the stem is perhaps more "English" in style. However, I still think it is more likely to be Bohemian/Czech - though some Bohemian engravers did emigrate to England (and to the States, too). Top quality work, wherever it was done.
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Malwodyn, thanks again! I spent a week convinced the piece was English, after seeing such similar work in an old British Glass book. But then have wavered back and forth between English, Czech and German/Bohemian after other web research. Sometimes it's hard to give up and just enjoy a piece for what it is, ha!
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hi Eglass,
have you considered to contact a collector or expert for military objects? the uniform of the
rider may point towards a region as well as to a date.
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Dirk, I hadn't thought of that - very interesting idea! I'll see what I can find out - and thanks!
Kelli
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Beautiful piece! Really gorgeous engraving.
Following up on Dirk's suggestion to look at the uniform, I found this site:
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?option=com_insigniasearch&view=insigniasearch&Itemid=53
A double chevron on the sleeve can denote a US Army Corporal, but don't know how many other countries used the same motif (or if that is indeed a double chevron and not an outline of a single one). Britain used chevrons, at least in WWI, to denote wounds, but that was on the right sleeve.
Is the rim ground flat? My tendency is to say not Bohemian, but I'm by no means certain of that.
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The uniform looks early 20C and not English. The chevron points the wrong way for a start and would be on the other arm for rank. LH chevron was a good conduct stripe. The hat looks "foreign". I think that UK cavalry generally wore peaked caps in mounted service at this sort of time (WW I). During the Boer War it seems to have been pith helmet or brimmed hats. Horse weren't used that much in WW II by the British
IMHO I don't think it's a UK uniform.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipizzan
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Kristi, very interesting website, I ran across it yesterday morning but didn't have time to do much of a search. It IS what looks to be a double chevron on the left sleeve, and the hat also has what appears to be an "x" or maybe crossed swords? in the center front. Christine mentions the left sleeve being used for conduct medals or patches, another clue. Then the Lippizan stallions being in the region of Austrian region, makes me wonder about a German uniform which I will have to check out this evening.
Of course it could just be a regular horse, and this engraving telling a story of a wild stallion deciding he was going to have a captive horse if he could just get rid of this pesky rider. ;)
Oh, the rim is flat on top but with a minute bevel inside and out, and polished.
Ivo, Kristi and Christine, thanks again for your input.
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You know, I think there's a possibility it's American. The bridles looks like Western bridles, the insignia looks like a private (more than corporal; didn't see the other before) in the US Army, the hat is peculiar and might possibly supposed to look something like one of these?
http://www.ushist.com/victorian_hats.htm (http://www.ushist.com/victorian_hats.htm)
The crossed swords shown at the bottom of the page (denoting cavalry) could be the X.
There were a few companies in the US making Bohemian-style engraved glass in the late 19th C, New England Glass Co. and Boston and Sandwich being the most likely. That would fit with a Civil War time frame.
Could you show a close-up or two of the leaves on trees and shrubs?
Gorgeous, very interesting piece.
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Kristi, now that's a thought! This piece was in a collection along with with several other authentic pieces of Civil War memorabilia, such as some old flasks that we weren't able to get to fast enough.
Let me run take a couple of better closeups - be right back. :)
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Kristi and all,
I'm adding a larger closeup of the rider, and a separate shot of his boots which don't show up well in the first group of photos.
Also a shot of the bushes and grass, and the tree to the right side of the scene.
These are larger photo files, hope they don't make the page take forever to load for you. Pics are added at the bottom.
Thanks again for all your help!
Kelli
http://www.enchantmentglass.com/engravedgoblet.html
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I have been looking at this for a few days now wondering what the image reminded me of, and then today when putting some dvds away it hit me "Dr Zhivago" the uniform and hat seem similar.
Tried to find am image see here http://www.cinematographers.nl/GreatDoPh/Films/DrZhivago1.jpg
So maybe Russian?
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I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the cap the rider is wearing, or on the stripes on his arm - the engraver was probably copying a picture which may not have been that accurate anyway. I would certainly not be surprised to learn that this was made in the United States in the 19th Century - or that the engraver came originally from Bohemia. My original suggestion was made solely on stylistic grounds - I've a smallish collection of Bohemian glass of this kind, though nothing of this quality.
No-one so far seems to have remarked on the rider's cap badge....
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Hi ,
Sorry but i don't have the full answer but think I can point you in the right direction , the glass is almost certainly Bohemian 19thc , and I think you should look into the engravers Karl Pfohl and also the Pohl family , both these engravers were very fond of this subject type, i have seen a similar glass in 1 of my many books but so far cant find it ,My main interrest is in 17th and 18thc mainly English glass which is why I am little lacking in this dept the quality of the engraving looks very fine indeed and if can be attributed to 1 of the great engravers like Pfohl it could be a pretty valuable find ,
If i manage to find out anything more concrete I will post it ,
great find , Peter.
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Sue, interesting thought on the Russian connection - the scene suggests an event in history, and I tend to think Malwoden is correct - that it is just a fine work by a master engraver, copying from a painting or printed image.
Malwoden - do you mean the crossed swords or "x" on the front of his hat?
Peter - WOW! I will research that name and see if I can find any images to compare - I have a few old art glass books but so far haven't run into anything that similar. I am so appreciative of you speaking up about the Pohl family! I mentioned in my original post that a local expert had mentioned a name to me which I wrote down somewhere, and can't find - it did begin with "P" but was different and I haven't been able to reach him this week. This mystery continues!!
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Hi ,
Sorry but i don't have the full answer but think I can point you in the right direction , the glass is almost certainly Bohemian 19thc , and I think you should look into the engravers Karl Pfohl and also the Pohl family , both these engravers were very fond of this subject type, i have seen a similar glass in 1 of my many books but so far cant find it ,My main interrest is in 17th and 18thc mainly English glass which is why I am little lacking in this dept the quality of the engraving looks very fine indeed and if can be attributed to 1 of the great engravers like Pfohl it could be a pretty valuable find ,
If i manage to find out anything more concrete I will post it ,
great find , Peter.
Peter, it reminded me of some of the Pfohl pieces, also. I also believe this is an old Austrian piece, either from Bohemia or perhaps Vienna. The engraving reminds me most of work that was done there.
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Hi Anita - I found a piece of Karl Pfohl's work online and must say I agree with Peter, the style and detail is SO similar.
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Hi ,
This might be a good place to start looking ,
http://www.glas-forschung.info/03_glas/schnitt.htm
Cheers ,
Peter.
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Peter, what a great website! Now if I just spoke German. lol - I opened the pdf file linked with one of the items and it looks to be a reference book (in German) but with great photos of horse engravings done by the artists of the period. Many thanks again for the lead and research material!!!
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(This was written before the last 5 replies appeared. I agree that Pfohl engraved in a similar style, but so did many others, including engravers working for companies in different countries. The engraving style is definitely Bohemian, but that doesn't really signify much. As written in Wilson's American Glass 1760-1930: "Attribution of Bohemian-style glass to specific glasshouses is difficult, for the style became virtually international. It is also difficult to date because it continued to be made well into the twentieth century.")
Kelli and I both remarked on the X on the cap. There's a crossed sword insignia shown in one of the links I posted that denotes cavalry (http://www.ushist.com/victorian_hats.htm), but I just realized you have to click on "Union Hats - USA - Enlisted" under "Civil War" in the upper right to get to the page.
I would think given the detail shown that the insignia would be pretty significant.
I'm not sure about this, and I would appreciate others' input, but I don't remember seeing many Bohemian examples with tight red and white twists in the stem like that found here. I've seen a lot of other red threading, but it has been much looser (and earlier). And this is a minor detail, but scenic engraved Bohemian glass I've seen usually has nice, neat tufts of grass. Something like that could easily vary from engraver to engraver though.
Wish you could see the saddle. I've looked through my references and found many images of Bohemian engraved pieces with horses and riders. Most (all but one or two of a dozen) have four reins, and from what I can see they all have nosebands. Western-style bridles don't have nosebands, but maybe they (or something similar) are used in Europe, too?
Anyway, considering the evidence (including the fact that other Civil War memorabilia was sold by the same people), I'm sticking with my guess that it's American. You might try sending a few photos to the Corning Museum of Glass.
Kelli, thanks for the additional photos!
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Kristi, great idea to send pics to CMOG, to either lay to rest or confirm the American possibility.
We were planning on listing this piece soon - I've held it back for research and because I just LOVE how it looks - and am glad that I kept squirreling it away. ;)
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HI ,
I think if you contact this person you will get all the answers you need , in the past i have contacted them to help with translations on 17thc and 18thc glass and they have always been very helpful ,so I am sure if you send them an email with a photo they will get back to you pretty quickly ,
http://www.glasvonspaeth.com/deutsch/frames.php?id=3&sprache=engl
Cheers ,
Peter
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After looking at Peter's terrific link, my bridle theory went out the window! I still have doubts about it being Bohemian though, because of the style of the glass and the rider's uniform.
Are you listing it on ebay? I'd like to watch the auction.
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Peter, I will email them this evening. What a great resource! And I'll be back here to let you know what I find out. Thank you!!
Kristi, yes, it will be eBay - I'll let you know when I end up doing that, it will probably be in a couple of weeks if I'm able to let go of it by then. ;)
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I think the hat is European. Although there was little practical regulation on the hats in use in the US civil war this was not really like the typical ones in use. Looks French(ish) to me.
http://www.dirtybillyshats.com/acw1.htm
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Frank, I kind of wondered about that little "poufy" feather or plume business up above the hat - almost looked as though it were an engraving mistake but perhaps it's actually part of the hat.
I went ahead and emailed the folks at the website that Peter provided, and hopefully I'll hear back from them - then we'll have more info to add to the mix perhaps. It's definitely intriguing!
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I think the hat is European. Although there was little practical regulation on the hats in use in the US civil war this was not really like the typical ones in use. Looks French(ish) to me.
http://www.dirtybillyshats.com/acw1.htm
The French (at least during WWI, which seems a bit late for this piece anyway) had their insignia on the cuff.
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/French_WW1_Rank-Chart.pdf
To me the cap looks very much like some of the kepis US soldiers wore, with the flat top like that. But the French wore similar kepis, so that's possible too.
Kelli, do you have a black light? You might see what color it glows, if any. Not that that's a definitive answer to anything, but it could be a clue.
This piece fascinates me!
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I didn't see that as a plume but the top part of the soft hat. Interesting how people see different things.
Nice engraving though.
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Frank, now that you described what you see - I can see it. I'm not familiar with that type of soft cap so to me it looked "wrong".
I just received a reply from Wilfrid von Spaeth, at the website Peter recommended. Thanks again, Peter! This site [email address removed & website link added below] is very informative and lots of nice eye candy. http://www.glasvonspaeth.com
Hello!
This really is an interesting goblet. The engraving is excellent. I
think it was done in North Bohemia in the last quarter of the 19th.
century. To determine the engraver is very difficult because there were
too many artists working in the same manner.
Regards
Wilfrid von Spaeth
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oops! The actual website that Peter posted was this one:
http://www.glasvonspaeth.com/deutsch/frames.php?id=3&sprache=engl
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Nice site.
As a hat lover and having known too many people in a wide variety of very serious re-enactment societies, I always was fascinated by the incongruence with the hats they wear being so different from those in Hollywood for this period! We have all grown up with a very uniform idea of uniforms and prior to our lifetimes the reality was very different.
Interesting that Wilfrid von Spaeth did not comment on the stem, perhaps if you drew his attention to that. Plus the foliage style.
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I agree with Frank, it would be worth asking about the stem. You might point out the uniform, too.
FWIW, I found an image of Austro-Hungarian cavalry in 1898. Looks like they wore kepis, too! Their rank insignia is near the cuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KuK_Kavallerie_1898.jpg
I didn't pay much attention to the blob above the hat. It seems too ill-defined to look intentional. The ambiguous shape of the hat, and the fact that armies of multiple countries wore similar styles, suggest that it's not a very good detail for ID purposes. The shape and placement of the chevron and the X on the hat seem more relevant. The suggestion of consulting someone who knows about these things is a good one.
Without meaning any disrespect of von Spaeth's opinion, I would still send photos to CMOG simply because if this does happen to be American and depicting a US Civil War soldier it could be worth a lot of money and have significant historical value.
I suspect "Americo-Bohemian" glass is more common in the US than people are aware of, but proving a piece is American it is another matter. "An illustrated Boston and Sandwich catalogue of 1870-1875, as well as quantities of fragments excavated at the factory site, shows that Bohemian-style glass accounted for a significant percentage of its production in the 1860s and 1870s." (American Glass 1760-1930) A third of the glass shown by New England Glass Co. at a 1953 exhibition in New York was Bohemian-style. People today understandably assume such pieces are Bohemian.
For those interested in the subject, here's an article about glass by one of the best known engravers of this style who worked in America, the German-born Louis Vaupel: http://www.cutglass.org/articles/art142.htm (http://www.cutglass.org/articles/art142.htm)
Also a photo of a sample of Americo-Bohemian glass at CMOG. The goblets are New England Glass Co. (probably by Vaupel), and the pitcher is by Henry Barnes Leighton, son of the New England factory superintendent.
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Frank and Kristi, I will send another email to von Spaeth and perhaps he'll be willing to take a closer look.
I did send off a note to CMOG yesterday, but haven't heard back. I don't expect to hear from them right away - I've sent requests before to them, and have waited for several weeks for a reply so I'm not surprised.
Kristi, thank you for your input regarding the "Americo-Bohemian" glass of the New England Glass Company. QUITE fascinating to say the least. But like you said - "proving a piece is American it is another matter."
I thank you all again - I need to say goodnight, but will check in tomorrow should I hear anything from my queries to von Spaeth or CMOG.
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proving a piece is American it is another matter
That's why this piece is so exciting. If it is an American private depicted, it is very highly likely American. From there you (or someone) might be able to use the distinctive stem and shape to possibly pinpoint a company. I think this is potentially a museum piece because of the fine and distinctive engraving and the subject matter.
This kind of engraving has long been a special interest of mine. One of my first glass purchases was an excellent Bohemian intaglio engraved tumbler depicting horses in a forest scene, and I've looked at many since. This one is very different. The engraver hid the soldier almost entirely behind the rearing horse, yet made certain that you knew who he was, or rather, who he represented. It shows the capture of a frightened, wild-looking horse. The fence indicates it belongs to someone. This is a story of an invading army stealing horses, not your standard hunting scene.
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Ach, durnit. Found a flaw in my US Civil War theory: the chevron is upside-down. It went the other way then, and was only switched to the position shown sometime near the end of the 19th C. Humbug.
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LOL, Kristi - but it still COULD be a plausible theory with artistic license taken. I'll sure get back with info from CMOG once they review it. :)
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After looking at a bunch more examples of Bohemian pieces with engraving in this style I realized the foot is totally wrong for someone like Pfohl, or of that era. The foot on Bohemian pieces like this is typically heavy, chunky and cut. The bowl shape would be odd, too.
Wish I knew more about what the French did in this vein. Haven't given up on American, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what Jane Spillman says.
Quite an enigma.
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Kristi, Is Jane Spillman the one at CMOG who will probably reply? There were several email contact numbers on their website, none specifically about glass. I emailed conservation@cmog.org - hopefully the message isn't sitting in the email box of someone who is on vacation, lol.
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You might have better luck emailing the curator (curatorial at cmog dot org) rather than conservation (the conservator works more with repair and preservation of the museum collection). Jane Spillman is the Curator of American Glass at CMOG, but seems to answer most glass questions, and she knows a heck of a lot about engraved and cut glass. She would likely be the one to look at your photos. She's very nice, and good at replying, but sometimes it does take a while because they are busy or have to do some research about the piece. They get a lot of queries. I imagine it drives them nuts sometimes, but in this case I think it's justified.
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I see, Kristi - I'll re-direct my email to the curator email and cross my fingers. :) Thanks again!
Kelli
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I showed your stem to a friend of mine, and she suggested posting it on the ebay Historical Memorabilia discussion board, thinking someone might recognize the soldier's uniform. There certainly are a lot of military questions addressed there.
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Kristi, I'll give it a shot. Still no response from CMOG, so I'll go this route and then probably list this treasure on eBay next Sunday night regardless. I'll drop you a line if you want to watch it then. If I kept everything that intrigued me I'd be in serious trouble around here, lol.
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Kristi and everyone, here's a link to the Historical Memorabilia board on ebay. I've posted my question there, and you can check it out to see if I get any responses that might help clear this up. I'll be in and out this week, and don't want to miss keeping you all posted on anything I may learn regarding this goblet.
http://forums.ebay.com/db1/topic/Historical-Memorabilia/Interesting-Engraved-Goblet/510113903
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Kristi, I just received this reply from Jane Spillman at Corning:
Dear Ms. Rooney,
Your recent message to the Museum has been referred to me for a reply as I've done quite a bit of research on Americo-Bohemian
glass. Your wineglass is not like any piece I've ever seen, both in terms of the scene and in the form, with the twist stem. The first
thing to determine is whether or not it's lead glass, which will tell you if it's Continental, as it appears to be, or possibly English or
American, which is much less likely.
I can't see the details of the male figure in the engraving very well, so although he does look like an army figure, I can't really be
certain of his date. Even if the figure is an American soldier, the engraving could be copied from a print, and done in Europe. For
instance, we own a large Bohemian vase which is engraved with a view of the battle between the Monitor and the Merrimac in 1862.
It was probably made within 6 months of the battle, when the news reached Europe and was spread around.
But your glass, while very handsome, bothers me because the stem, and the cut panels, seem to date from the 1890's or the turn of the century, which makes me thank that it was made well after the Civil War. You might try researching prints to see if you can find the source, which would help to date it. However, I think it is far more likely to be Bohemian than American in the Bohemian style.
I'm sorry I can't be of more help.
Sincerely,
Jane Shadel Spillman
Curator of American Glass
The Corning Museum of Glass
So I think we've probably reached the end of the road on this piece, as it looks to be most likely Bohemian and the engravers of the period we're talking about were numerous.
Thank you all so much for the help with this fun piece!!!
Kelli
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I've always thought the end of the road was where the answer is! ;D
Sometimes that road is just longer and has more bends and forks in it than we had hoped for.....
Someone somewhere knows the answer!!
Craig
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Craig, lol - you're right, of course!
I should have said MY portion of this particular road has a big stop sign on it. It's time for me to move this piece along to the next person who can take the mystery further. ;)
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Hi ,
Oh well we seem to have come full circle on this glass , and now back to my first thoughts , Bohemian late 19th , I see you mentioned putting it on ebay , It would be great if you let us watch the sale , and maybe if I have a go and win it , then I WILL get to the bottom of it , and reveal all in time , I always enjoy a bit of sleuthing,
cheers ,
Peter.
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Well that was a nice reply from Ms. Spillman. Interesting that she hadn't ever seen a piece like it, having seen as much glass as she has! I wonder if the people at the Passau Museum could tell you anything about it, or the Victoria and Albert. Would you mind if I sent your photos to those places (unless, of course, you prefer to yourself)? I'd love to be able to win it myself, but doubt I could bid high enough, and this puppy has me more curious than any piece has for a long time. It's so unusual and distinctive. Good luck with your auction! I'll be watching... :)
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the Passau museum books have a number of examples very like this. Franz de Paula Zach, is the main maker of this sort of thing referenced in the PMCIII.237
Karl Pfohl Steinschonau did a lot of color engraving with horses and riders referenced in PMCIII.72 73 and 74
I found this a year or so ago on the net, it's someone's tour of the passau museum. he attributes some things in there differently than the books do so you can't really take that part at it's word necessarily but it's still interesting stuff.
http://www.pixclix.com/Micro-Wave/Germany-2004/
I didn't see the particular stein I was looking at in the book for Franz de Paula Zach here. but they do have some of Karl pfohls work. the thing to remember looking at these though, is that this person is not the best photographer in the world. they look ever so much nicer in the books. it's really enlightening.
http://www.pixclix.com/Micro-Wave/Germany-2004/July06-Passau/4th%20Floor/imagepages/image14.html
the upfront vase with the two horses is plate 72 plate: 73 and 74 are blue glass
there is an engraved vase in there that has a similar style of engraving to a vase that I have but I can't photograph it for all the world. the pic that this person took of this particular vase only gets a bit of the detail and makes the engraving look washed out and hides most of the detail, when you look at this vase in the book, the detail is astounding. figures appear where it's just a blur in the museum tour photos. I want to know how they do it.
my point is, these don't look that fine in these pics but they really look spectacular when good photos are presented.
I don't know if your goblet is bohemian but I think there is a very good chance that it is. I think it looks most like the Franz pieces, Maybe I'll take this book to work with me tomorrow and scan up the page.
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After looking at a bunch more examples of Bohemian pieces with engraving in this style I realized the foot is totally wrong for someone like Pfohl, or of that era. The foot on Bohemian pieces like this is typically heavy, chunky and cut. The bowl shape would be odd, too.
Wish I knew more about what the French did in this vein. Haven't given up on American, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what Jane Spillman says.
Quite an enigma.
the klunky period was the 1850-1860's it's very possible that it could still be pfohl but a later period where the style had moved on from the clunk factor. the stuff from Franz de Paula Zach is not clunky though. I just found another example in the books from this company PMCIII.230
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Thanks for posting the links! I'd seen them before, but forgot about looking there. You can't post scans here, but I'd love to see the pieces in the book. If you get a chance, could you email me an image or two? If there's text that talks about them I could translate it, too.
I wasn't familiar with Zach's work, but I've found several pieces on the internet. He doesn't seem to me in my Bohemian glass books, maybe because though he was born in Prague, by the time he was 20 he worked near Munich. There's an interesting interview with Reino Reike at the Victoria and Albert Museum about a goblet he engraved at http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/glass/audio/audio_proms_talk/index.html. Zach died in 1881, though, which seems to place him earlier than this was made. From the Zach pieces I've seen, his style was different than that on the goblet here, but I'd like to see a wider range of his work. Interestingly, the goblet at the V and Z looks sort of like it has a twisted colored thread in the stem, but it could be a bubble reflecting the blue layer. (Incidentally, Zach engraved a reproduction of the Portland Vase!)
The chunky, heavily cut feet I'm thinking of were made from about 1830 until at least 1880. Not all feet on pieces engraved in this style were like that, but even the plainer, round ones on the goblets in the links are quite heavy. Are those in your books are lighter?
It's interesting to think about the possibility that the goblet was engraved on the Continent based on an American image (or images), as Ms. Spillman suggested. That would almost certainly mean that it was made after 1902 because of the position of the chevron, unless for some reason it was deliberately inverted. That makes sense to me, too, considering the form and designs on the bowl and foot. The cut design on the bowl has always reminded me more of Art Nouveau stuff from Steinschonau than earlier work, but who was engraving in this style (and with this skill) then? Although as Kerri pointed out there were many engravers around, this piece is extremely well-executed. To get the detail evident here in colorless glass would be difficult enough, but to also get such precise shading in cased glass is pretty phenomenal. The detail on the horses' heads is astonishing. The red is very dark and shallow, so you get dramatic contrast with little change in depth.
I'd give a year of my life to own this goblet and be able to study it!
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Sorry not to check in sooner, it's been a crazy few days here with life interfering.
Thank you all for the great input on this piece!
Kristi, you're welcome to link to my photos or save them to your computer and use in any manner you wish - that goes for anyone here who'd like to do so.
Azelismia, thank you so much for posting the links to Orville's trip to Germany, and the many museum photos! If that's the same Orville I'm thinking of, he's quite the collector and sometimes visits eBay's Glass Board to share photos of his collection and exchange ideas. I know exactly what you mean also regarding the difficulty in capturing good images of detailed engravings without professional equipment - I must have taken 100 shots of this goblet alone and still wasn't able to get a good detail shot of the texture of the engraving to my satisfaction.
Peter, many thanks. :)
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Can the new owner shed any light on the piece? Did you ask them if they had any additional information? Who knows, they may have 3 and needed a 4th to complete a set....
I just sold a set of 4 early opalescent vaseline optic swirl shades that I could not identify, and after the auction the under bidder who was in the US told me she thought they may be WAS Benson.... They went to Scotland.
If you have not asked, you may want to out of curiosity...... I always do.... they may be that "someone" I referred to that would know the answers all of us were trying to come up with :thup:
I watched the auction and thought the result would make you happy!
Congratulations.
Craig
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Craig, I will contact them later today - the piece should have arrived yesterday, so I want to make sure it's in their hands safely anyway, and will invite them to join us on this Board for further discussion. If they'd rather not do that, I'll at least ask if they have any further info or insight on the goblet, and I'll report back.
This sale's proceeds paid off some plane tickets and hotel rooms for my daughter's wedding in October, so we're tickled pink!
Thanks again!
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Anne, thank you for moving things around for us. :)
The new owner has generously shared his personal website, which shows some amazing examples of his collections. Here is some of his email to me today, after the goblet arrived there (whew!):
"Dear Kelli, first let me thanks for your Mail with the tracking Nr. of this Goblet und for your perfect service. Second: Also here in Germany nobody can say which glass engraver in Bohemia made this Goblet. The time it was etched is 1850-1860 i think. And there are two names which had the talent to make it. They are 1. Karl Guenther from Steinschoenau and 2. Karl Pfohl also Steinschoenau. I think this Goblet is made from Karl Guenther but he has not signed his works and there is not one glass with his signature. If you are interested please look to my homepage there is a nice Karl Pfohl Goblet in Blue (Litophanie etching) with a horse. www.kunstundglas.de"
If you look at his website, the goblet is under the "sonstiges glas" link over on the right.
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Very nice to have a buyer who's willing to share their information! Wow, he has some nice glass!
After reading his email I did a search for Karl Günther, and lo and behold, found a glass of a very similar form attributed to him (to see it you'll have to go to this page and do a search; can't link to it: http://www.auctions-fischer.de/_shop/shop.php4?auktion=89 (http://www.auctions-fischer.de/_shop/shop.php4?auktion=89))
Then reading about him in Pazaurek's Gläser der Empire- und Biedermeierzeit found out that he worked in France for a while, among other places (makes me wonder whether the blank might be French???). Perhaps the soldier in the picture is French - they wore chevrons, I believe.
Anyway, it ain't American! Who could've suggested such a preposterous idea? ;)
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Good result and home :) Puzzled by the Litophanie etching (=Lithopane) as the blue piece is not as far as I can see?
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I haven't found that particular piece either, Frank, I'll ask about it. I have another piece that this gentleman and I are going to be discussing - it was seen here a couple of years ago and Marcus helped me with it. I still have it - but it may have found a new home:
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I haven't found that particular piece either
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the blue Pfohl on his site. I was puzzled about that, too. My guess is that the original scene was on a lithophane.
For the bowl, you (or the gentleman, since it's in German) might find this helpful:
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/archiv/pdf/pk-2002-1w.pdf
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Kristi, thank you for that link! I'm still waiting for it to download, I'm on dial-up out here in the "boondocks". :)
I'm enchanted with the glass on his website, and of course get lost in the Passau website every time I visit it.
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Hi Kelli,i have just come across a website that may shed some light on your glass,they seem to have some similar designs it is http://www.Bohemian-glassworks.com/gallery/engrave5.HTML if you have any difficulty in finding it let me know as i have put it into my favourites,i think you may have to type it into your address bar rather than a search engine..lynn
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Lynn, hi! Thanks for the link - I have seen that website, that company makes new glass "in the style of" the old makers. It's a good one to check on occasion though, because you'll see pieces that are being currently presented as "old" on ebay as well as in antique shops, etc.
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I have just come back from a visit to the V & A; and was pleasantly surprised to see a goblet almost certainly engraved by the same hand!! I'm sorry I don't have a photograph to post, but I made a note of the details
It is item 9345 - the shelf is described as "Biedemeier and Bohemian" "Goblet, etched, with latticinio thread in stem - mid 19th Century"
There is no rider - and the horse is standing; but the similarities (to me at least) are obvious
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Sorry - this post is in the wrong thread!!! My fault entirely! Could a moderator please redirect it? I'm still not used to the search facility here on the Board - and I was misled by the Bohemian reference. Should be in the thread discussing the Bohemian Goblet with the rider in militry uniform on the rearing horse.
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Hi Malwodyn,
I've separated out these two posts with the intention of merging them with the thread "discussing the Bohemian Goblet with the rider in military uniform on the rearing horse", but the only thread like that that I can find is the one you originally added the comments to, the subject of which is a goblet engraved with two rearing horses, one of which is being ridden by a man in military uniform...
Are you absolutely certain it was a different thread, and if so, can you or anyone give any more hints to finding it? :)
Here are eglass's original photos of the goblet in that thread. (http://www.enchantmentglass.com/engravedgoblet.html)
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Cathy, that is indeed the thread in which I had intended to post; but when I looked at it after it had gone on line, the pictures seemed to be of another piece entirely!!!
Could you please redirect my posting of yesterday's date?
An additional remark I should make is that the latticinio twist in the V & A goblet has a blue thread, while that in the goblet which started the debate has a red thread.
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Malwodyn - Topic remerged as requested. :) This is a long, contorted thread with lots of pics of different pieces, so it's not surprising you were confused.
Kelli, I note that you've sold the piece in question. May we save some of your photographs to the thread, so that they're preserved if you delete the originals?
Thanks