Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: tortentaumel on January 10, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
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Hello
I own two Sabino ashtrays of the same kind. One is a little damaged and the other one i recently bought is unpolished.
I look for these ashtrays since years and i can not find out their history (amount made,date of production, purpose for production)
via internet. Sabino art glass.com gave me very unkind answers and they seem to not know anything or they don't want to tell me.
They insisted on the fact that the intact ashtray is unpolished,unfinished and that it is trash that somebody picked out of the
thrashcan in the production place.
I google these ashtrays since years and i never find them in the entire internet. Though i believe they are a rare object.
Anybody who can give me informations about these ashtrays is welcome and i am interested to buy more of them.
Regards
Torsten
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more pics
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i love the design of these ashtrays and i would like to find out everything known about them.
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Has nobody have an idea about these ashtrays? They are signed with "Sabino France" and the first one, who was dropped and got damaged was bought by me in Switzerland. The second one, unpolished and "trash" i bought recently through a "petit annonce" in France. I have never found this ashtray again. Therefore i think it is a rare piece of Sabino. Who knows more ?
Thanks in advance
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Hi and welcome to the gmb.
Please have a bit of patience - it can take time for the right person to come along to answer your query. We're all here because of an interest in glass and sharing info. about it, but it's all strictly on a volunteer basis.
I've certainly never seen one of these before, I think they're lovely - hang onto your "trash"!!!!!!
(a massive collection of these would make a glorious wall of glass "tiles" :thup: )
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Hi
as Sue says, hang on in there and hopefully someone will be along to help. Personally I think they utterly amazing and very beautiful. I wonder if they were made for a hotel or similar? what size are they?
m
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Why are you disregarding what Sabino have told you about the unpolished item? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me...
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Hi Anne
Sabino artglass is right about the unpolished one. But they only answered me that i bought trash without
any further information about these objects. Even my remark that i would own another one which is polished
did not show any reactions by them. The ashtrays are about 12 cm to 12 cm size. Hight is around 2 cm.
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Hi Torsten,
Sabino Art Glass is an American company who now own Sabino's moulds and still produce in France, mainly for export to the US. I've contacted them in the past and haven't found them very helpful either.
Your ashtrays aren't especially rare, but I believe they are no longer in production. The pattern is shown in Philippe Decelle's Sabino Maitre Verrier de L'Art Deco 1878-1961 as no. 9077 Les Fleurs. The price in 1931 was 35 Francs for coloured or 40 Francs for Opal.
Regarding finishing, I have to say that pre-war Sabino can be quite variable. When you say unpolished do you mean not mechanically polished or not fire-polished? I'd think it not unusual for functional items like ashtrays to receive little in the way of polishing. Also different batches can be finished quite differently so I wouldn't worry about the lack of polishing.
Steven
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Regarding finishing, I have to say that pre-war Sabino can be quite variable. When you say unpolished do you mean not mechanically polished or not fire-polished? I'd think it not unusual for functional items like ashtrays to receive little in the way of polishing. Also different batches can be finished quite differently so I wouldn't worry about the lack of polishing.
I think he means that one is opalescent all over and the other only round the sides
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The unpolished one doen't have the same smooth surface like the other one. Colourwise they appear pretty much the same.
All edges are not quite defined at the unpolished one while the other one has a much clearer contour.
I just wonder why there are so little around. I keep searching them through ebay.com and ebay.fr but since years i haven't found them.
The unpolished one i found through a "petit annonce" in France just recently and i payed 130 Euro for it. The other one i bought about 12 years ago in Zurich from an art deco shop and it was in perfect condition when i bought it. My wife dropped it from the top of our piano when she was sweeping dust
and it fell on the marble floor. Damned. Now i would like to find at least one of them which is in mint condition and polished.
If anyone would like to sell one or knows where i can find one, i would really appreciate to send me an offer.
Thanks for all the answers so far and please excuse my terrible english.
Regards
Torsten
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If you look at the first image, where the two pieces are side by side, you can see that the parts for laying the cigarette on (at each of the corners) have had the surface of the sides polished flat on the one on the left, while there are still raised curves from the moulding on this part on the one on the right.
Sadly, big businesses are not often interested in their history - just making money now and in the future.
I'm sorry you had such a dismissive response.
While your unpolished one may have been taken from the rubbish and deemed trash, clearly, if they are no longer making these, there is a limited supply and it does have value in the secondary market - to you personally and, I imagine, to many other Sabino collectors.
One person's trash is somebody else's treasure! :thup:
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----- Original Message -----
From: Art Glass
To: Torsten Goddon
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Per E-Mail senden: IMG_0005, IMG_0001, IMG_0002, IMG_0003, IMG_0004
Why do you accuse the messenger for answering your question the best he can?,
Is it because you do not like the answer?
Is it because you do not appreciate the time spent for answering you with courtesy?
Your ash tray is trash.
It is what it is.
Sir! we have been the world's Sabino distibutor since 1963.
About all the sabino sold in the world comes from us.
Wehter you buy from us or not your Sabino will still comes from us trough a dealer who buys it from us.
The big difference will the quality and authenticity.
We do not, I repeat do not sell trash, all trash is destroyed.
It is what it is
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From: "Torsten Goddon" <torsten.goddon@bluewin.ch>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 10:09 AM
To: sabino@mail.sabinoartglass.com
Subject: Re: Per E-Mail senden: IMG_0005, IMG_0001, IMG_0002, IMG_0003, IMG_0004
I actually considered to buy a "birth of a star" object through you but since i have to realize that you are rather impatient and uncaring about collectors questions and needs, i will have to manage my interest for antique Sabino glass via different sellers.
Regards
Torsten Goddon
Muehlegasse 5
8114 Dänikon
Switzerland
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Glass
To: Torsten Goddon
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:35 PM
Subject: re: Per E-Mail senden: IMG_0005, IMG_0001, IMG_0002, IMG_0003, IMG_0004
Hello,
This Ash tray did not pass the quality control and did not pass the test of approval.
It is unfinished and unpolished and was to be discarded for some unkown reason it was gathered from the trash bin.
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the text above shows how sabino art glass Texas is communcating with collectors.
No comment
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Very sad.
Even sadder - it's added a sour taste to my little Sabino butterfly - my one example of this maker, who I had liked very much for a long time. I won't be getting any more.
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i think we need to differenciate between the american company and Ernest Marius Sabino.
I would like to believe that he himself never would have made such harsh comments.
It might have to do with the location of Sabino in Texas. It's just a different culture than
the europeean art of communication. But i must admit that i was pretty upset about their
statements. I still love opalescent Sabino stuff and i own quite a number of objects.
Sabino america cannot spoil my desire for the antique objects ,prefarably made before 1963.
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I agree completely. I have always preferred Sabino to Lalique - I like Barolac and Jobling too.
I've got a thing about opalescent glass, but I don't collect it.
Now I don't know when my butterfly was made! It is marked "Sabino France" in flowing script, I can't tell if it is engraved or etched.
Surely it wouldn't be marked "France" if it was made in america?
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I don't know about the sign america uses, but there are Sabino France and Sabino Paris signed objects.
The once with Sabino Paris sign where made for the french market to my knowledge whilst the France ones
where to be exported to america. I also have this thing about opalescent glass and it's effect when sun shines through.
I can't look away from it and it fascinates me every time.
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this is my little collection of opalescent glass. Some of it is contemporary stuff but i don't care.
I used to have more Sabino objects especially trays but they got smashed by our kittens.
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Lovely - it's like having your own private sunset - those few precious moments, just before the sun really vanishes.
::) The joy of felines!
What you need is stuff called "Museum Gel". It will "stick" your glass to the surface it is sitting on.
Or train your kittens better! When we got our newest cat, I placed lemons all around my glass shelves, particularly near the bottom.
Then I just ignored her if she went near them - (although my heart was in my mouth!).
Now she pays no attention to it at all, even though it would be an adventure playground for her.
But she's not a fancy pedigree with their sometimes difficult behaviours - just a "wee moggie".
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I see now, looking at the photo yes one has the top surface of the rests flatted and polished while the other doesn't. I'd still say this is normal variation and the unpolished one is definitely not from the trash! Remember these were likely in production for several years and could have been finished by different teams or for different customers. While Sabino isn't my main area of interest, I've handled quite a lot as I used to deal in 30s pressed glass. As I said before, the older pieces are very variable in finish. If you can find his contact details, Philippe Decelle is the man to ask about Sabino, he compiled the catalogue Raisonne and also the book Opalescence Le Verre Moule des Annees 1920-30.
What an awful response from Sabino Art Glass! I had a rather brusque reply from them when enquiring about buying, but nothing as rude as that. I've never done business with them as I disliked their attitude then and I can see it hasn't changed since...
Sue, regarding your butterfly, if you post a photo of the mark I may be able to tell if it's older or newer. The mark on more recent production often is constructed of broader strokes as the engraving tool has a greater tip diameter. Older Sabino has a variety of marks; I've seen etched, moulded, diamond point incised and engraved.
I love opalescent glass too. I used to have a very big collection, mainly Jobling, Barolac and Verlys. I've since downsized a great deal but still have a lot of Jobling and have kept my favourite Barolac & Verlys pieces and one or two bits of Sabino including a rare paperweight made for the French shipbuilder Augustin Normand and a very unusual and unmarked blue cased opalescent vase coquilles.
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I've compared my mark with the image in Ivo's "Glass Fact File a-z", Mosquito, and I'd say mine was definitely made with the broader thing. I bought it in the big antiquey place in Amsterdam, from one of the more expensive shops rather than the stands, and I think I overpaid a fair bit. I have always suspected it was "new". It was a long time ago I bought it - I knew a lot less about glass then (and since I learned a bit more, all I've really discovered is how much I don't know!)
The light is dreadful here for pics - may try tomorrow. Thanks!
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LOL at that letter. Great communication skills. Lovely ashtrays though...
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Well, the communication went worse and i kept on trying to tell them that i own another one of these lovely ashtrays which certainly passed the quality control. I don't know what is wrong with those guys from Sabino america. They seem to be totally disinterested in collectors.
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They are - they want you to buy new stuff, not the old stuff, so they want to discourage that market.
But I still can't understand their dreadful bad manners - can't help sniggering at them saying they were courteous enough to do digging around for you and for replying!
What digging around?
What courtesy?
Just ignore them, you'll get far more help and enthusiasm from other collectors.
I'm afraid I don't know where you would find more ashtrays, though.
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Thanks Sue. Do i get you right, that you contacted them?
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They even got me that far that i lost my manner and told them out.
i said: If you hadn't bought the original molds from Sabino when you took over the company you would probably produce
figurines of Mickey mouse and Dolly Parton today.
Shame on me.
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As I tend to visualize, what I read or hear, I´ve now got an image of an opalescent Dolly Parton
figur in my mind. Thanks, Thorsten! :24:
BTW I think it was an adequate reply.
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I have not been in contact with them, no.
But I am aware that this can be the attitude taken.
Now I'm stuck with an image of an opalescent DP - I get strange images appearing in my brain too!
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DP figurines would fit the us market. They like artificial things.
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>:D
But so do I!
Give me beautiful glass before "real" jewels, I love the creativity of the maker emulating and improving on the appearance of "gems". (My only exception is opals.)
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I don't like silicone though.
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But it's very, very good for baking "tins". :thup:
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????
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Okay, i got it. Actually i like things to alter and show gravity.
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and i prefer large objects from tiny ones... ::) . Have we lost the topic?
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It could be heading for the Cafe! :no:
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correct. I would like to know more about Sue. she seems to be a little wicked...
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maybe some scones with clotted cream along with a nice cup of tea..
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errrrr, I'll bring my own coffee, and some home-made jam for the scones!
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I do think we should head for the cafe, I also think the tone is getting a bit dodgy.
This an international board, and we have very many lovely American members here.
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True, many nice people there, however isn't it the case people in TX are very very polite to each other in public because of this factor? Thats what I've been told from a very rational reliable source.
It's much the same way people in Darwin [Northern Territory - AU] are during what's termed 'the build up', when it is very hot and humid prior to monsoonal season are very very polite to each other due to everyone being on the edge of cracking up and turning monster.
Are people in Scotland very polite to each other in pubs because there are characters like Begbie in Trainspotting there? I would be... polite that is!
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::)
ummm, I don't honestly think I can remember, :-[ :-[ :-[ , not that far back, not in my heavy drinking days....
We're very friendly, though. ;D We'll chat to anybody. :sn:
We blether to strangers in the bus queue, or sitting next to us, or just in a queue in the shop.
Folk hold doors open for strangers - who have the courtesy to say thanks.
(although I think that sort of thing is a bit less common in the bigger, richer, more international sorts of cities)
But once alcohol gets involved, things can go a bit..... awry ........ :ho:
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I'm loving this thread! It reminds me of 'The Good (or bad?) Old Days'! ;D
It also reminded me that I too have a small piece of Sabino glass! But sadly mine has also been damaged by rampaging kittens! >:(
But she's not a fancy pedigree with their sometimes difficult behaviours - just a "wee moggie".
Sue, are you casting nasturtiums on my "fancy pedigree" fiends? >:D ;) Rightly so, I'm afraid :-\
My little 'Hirondelle' bowl sits on my bedside table and I put my rings in it at night. One day the cats were galloping across the bed and knocked over the bedside lamp, which chipped the edge of the little dish :'( What is it about cats and glass? We know we're asking for trouble, yet we must tempt fate and collect both! ::)
I definitely second Sue's comment about the need for Museum Gel. Most of my glass is stuck down with it, or with white-tac!
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;D
Leni, it's the superior intelligence of your pedigree cats which makes them curious, adventurous and demanding - and that is something you're aware of when you choose your beasts - moggies can be like that, sometimes, but with pedigrees, it's just about guarenteed. No nasturtiums involved!
All cats are beautiful, without exception.
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While I still can.... the ashtrays look very interesting... pretty and interesting design.
Shame about the ill feelings that come from an abrupt inquiry reply. Who knows what sort of a day that person was having.... or what was going on in their life at the time.
I like this opalescent glass effect. I've worked with sheets of the stuff in leadlight panels application in the past.
Wasn't all that 'cheap'.... neither is deep red or handmade multi colour sheets.
Does anyone know how it is made? Is it a post form treatment that can be abrasion removed?
Cats! LOL Lovely creatures.... most of the time. Can be very destructive.
Not sure about 100% pedigree meaning 'superior'. I've owned a few of the 'asian' breeds of 'show standard.
But my boy now is far from that. He of a wild cat breed that exists in the WA bush here... many isolated generations of feral nature with enough hybrid to develop into something unique to WA of sorts.
Might seem like a contradiction of terms, but he is 100% 'feral bush cat'.
He is 3.5years old now and from 'wild aggressive' kitten/juvenile turned very affectionate, most of the time, after a lot of handling and never been treated rough. Having said that, his idea of 'play' is to stalk/attack.
Working in the garden a few weeks ago he did a full frontal attack at my leg, jumping and holding on with claws while he sunk teeth in. It was because I wasn't playing with him on his demand.
This cat has always been a bit like a dog, digging trenches to hide and pounce... following me around the house... challenging dogs that appear in the yard.... catches mice and plays gentle for a long time and then suddenly starts eating them alive... doesn't leave a trace, consuming the lot. Always very curious and does come when called. None of this appears to be food motivated.
Funny how he was scared of the chooks when they were here. The 6 of them would gang up on him when free ranging.
He likes going for a drive in the car too, sitting in my lap looking out the side or front window purring away as we take a short drive.
Last night was the first time he sat in my lap as I was on the computer for 15min of his own will. Funny funny bugga... has a routine now of announcing his arrival into the room with a meow chorus, giving a leg rub and licking my feet, then wandering over to feed a little, then disappearing into the night. Returns again every time doing same routine.
The 'meow' and long intense foot licking has only been going on for the last 3months.... never had a 'voice' at all prior to that.
He can be problematic... can not be 'contained' in my room at night [gets viscous wanting out] nor contained the building as he will trip the alarm wandering around which is a major problem with security and Police response if I sleep through a 'confirm OK' telephone call. NOT GOOD AT ALL.
I wouldn't be without him... my best mate when I'm alone and knows when I get 'down'... even though he can be a proper doona hog in winter... which can end up in a fight.
Yeah.... my little mate PC. 100% West Oz Bush Cat.
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Can we talk about my ashtrays again? Any more informations about them?
Thanks
Torsten
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Quote from Steven on page 1
Your ashtrays aren't especially rare, but I believe they are no longer in production. The pattern is shown in Philippe Decelle's Sabino Maitre Verrier de L'Art Deco 1878-1961 as no. 9077 Les Fleurs. The price in 1931 was 35 Francs for coloured or 40 Francs for Opal.
Not sure what else you want to know.
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For instance why there are so little around. I haven't got the book though. Would it be possible to
scan the pages and show it here?
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Hi Torsten,
Not sure about scanning the book as it might breach copyright. I used to have M. Decelle's e-mail - if I find it, I'll ask him if it's OK, but really it's unnecessary as all it shows is a black and white image of the ashtray with the pattern no. There's no further information than what I've already given. If you're serious about collecting opalescent glass I'd recommend you invest in the book. It's out of print now but comes up on ebay every so often. I paid about 40 Euros for my copy and it's been invaluable in helping identify unusual or unmarked pieces. I'd also recommend Ph. Decelle's Opalescence Le Verre Moule des Annees 1920-30.
What I mean by not especially rare is that these are a production pattern not a special commission or trial pattern. I've certainly seen a number of examples over the years, though having said that, the last couple I saw were in a smoky-topaz colour rather than opalescent. In fact, I'd say all the pre-war Sabino ashtrays are fairly hard to come by, the only ashtrays I see with any frequency are the 9137 and related designs, i.e. the round ashtray with a central figure - most being post-war production. Ashtrays like this are not always easy to find at auction too as they're usually put into a job lot with other bits. There's much less demand for these than for vases or figures. Having said that, if you're patient and keep looking I'm sure you'll find more examples sooner or later.
I notice you also show a Sabino cendrier 'Les Pastilles' in your photo. Any chance of more photos of this as it looks to be a taller version than that shown in Decelle?
Steven
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I've now added these to my mental list of "things to look for" when (if) I get out.
If I see one, would you like me to get it for you?
Having said that, I don't get out much, and I don't see much Sabino around here in Scotland. :sc:
But you never know what you're going to find when you go out - it's always an adventure.
(Misha, your cat sounds wonderful, :usd: )
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http://www.zvab.com/displayBookDetails.do?itemId=146570619&b=1 :)
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Would it be possible to scan the pages and show it here?
Board policy is for no in copyright material to be published on the board unless the written permission of the copyright owner is given. If Steven can acquire this that's fine, otherwise no, sorry.