Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => China & Taiwan => Topic started by: Greg. on July 29, 2011, 03:50:26 PM
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Hi,
Picked this up today out and about on a bit of a whim. Seen a handful of other threads discussing Liuligongfang and their Pate-de-Verre production on this board.
Signed to the base 'Liuli 2010 987/3278'
Had a look through their website, although couldn't see anything matching this particular design, perhaps their ranges have changed this year.
Not my normal area, but seems very good quality, few pictures attached.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks
Greg
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Any thoughts appreciated.
super piece, easily identified. One of my top contenders for collectibles of the future.
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Thanks Ivo, good to hear your thoughts. Just reading some of the other threads regarding Liuligongfang, would this piece be pate-de-cristal or pate-de-verre, the distinctions sounded a little technical...?
Greg
:)
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I do adore their work and this is a really nice one! 2010 was year of the Tiger ;)
Most designs have their special meaning and symbolism.
As far as I know 'lost wax' technique and therefore all one-of-a-kind.
Unfortunately very expensive also in Hongkong and Mainland :cry:
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I just refreshed my memory to check as I thought these were issued as limited editions, albeit using the lost wax technique, and therefore not totally unique pieces. I'm open to correction here, but I believe the moulds are created using the lost wax technique however each design is issued as a limited edition and the pieces within that edition numbered to show this. Your piece is number 987 out of 3278 of that design.
Obviously I guess therefore it makes each piece unique but not each design...if that makes sense? As I said, I'm open to correction :sun: Is this the way Daum also produce their pieces? and would they therefore (Liuligonfang and Daum) be considered unique anyway?
Oh and by the way, I'm very jealous ;D I've yet to come across a piece although desperately seeking one, and I failed to bid on the last one I saw :cry:
m
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Might be hard to tell whether it's pate de crystal or verre without the documentation. One piece of mine is pate de crystal, the other pate de verre.
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Hi,
Makes complete sense, number 987 out of a series of 3278, produced from moulds using the lost wax technique. Looking at their website, each piece takes in total around 6-8 weeks to complete, over 12 different stages, outlined in their link below....
http://www.liuli.com/en-us/pata_de_verre.aspx
Whilst each piece has its own characteristics, essentially the series design is the same. Not completely sure about Daum's production, however, I know one of the previous threads discussing Liuligongfang touched on the fact that their technique was the same as in use at Daum these days, not really sure how unique this specific method is generally speaking, although clearly very labour intensive.
To be honest, I didn't recognise the maker initially, more the technique that stood out, came across it in a general bric-a-brac place, which is a little odd in itself seeing as it was produced only last year.
:)
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Thanks Max, I had been wondering, I sent their customer services department a brief email, so am hoping that they might shed a little more light.
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Lost wax casting has been mostly used for casting bronzes as one offs. But the technology has been refined adding another stage to make a mould from with further wax forms can be produced. With bronze casting the usually hand made wax original is buried in casting sand and the metal poured in which vaporises the wax. Unfortunately if you try that with glass you end up with very bubbly glass... so for glass you use the wax 'master' to make a mould to produce wax masters. Each wax master is then buried in a form of plaster and once set then heated to remove all of the wax... then the glass is poured into the mould. A lot of processes but not as labour intensive as you might think as each stage apart from creating the original is quite quick. It is an effective method of producing limited editions.
Technology has moved on and it possible to generate the original using computers and 3D printers so the same approach can be used for mass production and is in the container industry except that they create metal moulds from the originals. In theory is is possible to produce pate-de-vere in a 3D printer subject to glass inks (i.e. very fine glass in a suspension) that could then be fused in an oven. Slumping is prevented by also printing the mould in a non-glass material that is easily separted from the glass after fusing. No idea if anyone is doing this yet but it is a technique that offers even more remarkable art potential than is currently achieved by water cutting of glass blocks, Essentially anything you can visualise and generate as a 3D computer model could be made in glass. Exciting times....
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I am intrigued that much of the 'Studio' and factory Pate de verre is of a very primitive nature compared to Argy-Rosseau and Liuligongfang. It is simply a matter of technique I guess and the more primitive approach tends to, in my opinion, lose out on the qualities that glass offers and tends to be no different in end result to similar techniques used in ceramics. It does not take much more effort to do as AR and L so I presume that this ceramic style is being exploited by the artists deliberately. In the case of Caithness Glass examples it is probably just to speed up production time. But heck I am a known reactionary and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Liuligongfang I agree with Ivo is future SUPER, outbidding on any example that pops up on crimebay is good for your pension fund, buying new will work for that too.
On page 13 of Reflections 3 you can see the process of creating Pate de Verre in step by step detail LINK (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=22%3Acaithness-glass-co-ltd&id=51%3Areflections-3-1987&Itemid=9)
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I am intrigued that much of the 'Studio' and factory Pate de verre is of a very primitive nature compared to Argy-Rosseau and Liuligongfang.
Well I haven't seen much to be fair, but I have been looking around for a while now and I think I agree.....none of it floats my boat - I was going to purchase a piece, but it just didn't have the 'extra' complicated/detailed design that I think I am looking for, so I held off. But then I accidentally failed to bid on the one piece I did see that I liked, so was tempted back again to look around. However I still haven't bought a piece.
I will find 'the' one for me....one day ;D
m
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super piece, easily identified. One of my top contenders for collectibles of the future.
Liuligongfang is very easy to identify as it us usually always marked. The distinctive four character seal mark on this piece reads 'Liuligongfang'. That said, there are several firms on the Chinese mainland who are also capable of making wares of this quality (and if Liuligongfang becomes more widely recognised I wouldn't be surprised to see fakes appearing on the market).
I spent some time with a firm named Jin Bo who were making similar Pate-de-Cristal wares back in 2007 (this eagle sculpture was made by them http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10518). They use essentially the same methods as Liuligongfang. A clay master is sculpted from which an elastomer mould is taken. This elastomer mould is then used to cast as many wax positives as are required. These are then further finished by hand to add in the fine details, then encased in plaster of paris and the wax melted out. Thus numerous examples can be made from one model, though it's a fairly labour intensive process. The moulds are filled with crushed glass and fired in large electric kilns. The annealing happens in the kilns as they cool over a period of several days. After release, the pieces still need extensive finishing to remove the protrusions formed from the channels in the mould, etc. The failure rate was also fairly high with some pieces breaking when the plaster was removed. The need for highly skilled labour and the high failure rate explains why these pieces are expensive even in China where manufacturing costs are typically low.
I hope to research more makers and collect more catalogues when I go back to China at the end of the year.
The technique used is a little different from that used at Caithness and other smaller studios where a binder such as PVA is mixed with fine powders to produce a smooth paste. In the Chinese and Taiwanese firms, no binder is used and the mould can be filled with pieces ranging from fine powders to large chunks depending on the desired effect. The glass was delivered to Jin Bo in the form of coloured discs which were then broken up on the premises depending on what was required. The lack of a binder though means that it's hard to control the distribution of colour. While careful filling of the mould helps, there will always be some flow when the piece is fired. The end result though tends to be brighter and more translucent than traditional (powders with binder) pate-de-verre.
It is the fine quality of the models and moulds which give much of the character to the pieces. Jin Bo had a very skilled sculptor to create the models and finish the wax intermediates. Equally, to create the finished works also needs an understanding of how the glass will act in the mould, where to put the fill-holes, will the piece survive extraction?, etc. This understanding takes time to acquire and is I think, one reason why a lot of pate-de-verre sticks to simpler, more primitive styles.
Steven :)
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Steven thanks so much for the detail! I do love these pieces and it's extremely interesting to hear the pros and cons of how they are made and the effect on the outcome and finished pieces :) I'm holding off for that 'special' piece so I hope one day I find it ;D
m
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and info, great to get a detailed description of the processes/techniques involved.
Much appreciated.
Greg
:)
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Just to add a final little bit of detail to this specific piece. I received several extremely kind emails from Liuligongfang who informed me that this particular piece was called "A Majestic Duo" and was produced for the Mid Autumn Festival and part of the 'Gui Series' which contained 11 other designs apart from mine.
They also very kindly have re-created the original word card and information that the piece would have came with and posted it to me. Can't praise their response highly enough.
Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts.
Greg
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My SOH who is currently in Beijing has spotted a factory shop in the mall where his hotel is and will try and score a recent catalogue - will let you know if he does.
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Thank you Ivo.
:)
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Just to add a final little bit of detail to this specific piece. I received several extremely kind emails from Liuligongfang who informed me that this particular piece was called "A Majestic Duo" and was produced for the Mid Autumn Festival and part of the 'Gui Series' which contained 11 other designs apart from mine.
They also very kindly have re-created the original word card and information that the piece would have came with and posted it to me. Can't praise their response highly enough.
Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts.
Greg
Delightful that they recognise the value of collectors, why not mention the discussion on the GMB about their work to them.