Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on January 30, 2014, 11:36:54 AM
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I've had a portrait version of these salts before, enamelled portrait with Zwischengold and a red background. The salt dish it was on was cut.
The red is the ‘usual’ colour found for backgrounds and I've found some research from the Corning Museum of glass regarding restoration of Zwischengold glasses. It discusses what the red background was made of (not 'mixed in the pot' red glass I don't believe) as it has little flecks in it - open to correction on this, but I think I've understood the research correctly. My salt also had the red flecks in.
This green salt is possibly slightly 'unusual' because
a) it is green – I’ve never seen another (apart from it's possible pair – although may have been this salt).
b) the edge rim is molded – I have seen another portrait version online with a similar edging. The glass inside the bowl has wreathing in it and creases. But the base is bevelled at the edge and the applied glass ‘cover’ at the bottom is cut.
The green is made from blue and green flecks in the glass, like the red backgrounds. The gold is in immaculate condition.
I know Zwischengold glasses were made later on in the 1800's as I've seen a Russian goblet with enamelled medallions in it dating to 1860's. But I think it's possible that this salt, because of the way it has been made and the way the green has been used, dates to the late 1700's early 1800's (again open to correction, this is just my observation).
Two questions:
- Is it early pressed glass? The base has been cut and bevelled and the glass layer over the gold on green is cut.
- Are my dates right?
Raymond Slack,English Pressed Glass says of pressed glass
page 13
'There has been considerable controversy as to whether this process originated in America or Europe. ... However the man often credited with the invention of pressed glass, the American Deming Jarves of the Boston and Sandwich Glass Company, himself acknowledged the European origins of the process in his Reminisces of Glass Making published in 1865:
"Although it has been commonly believed here that the invention originated in this country, the claim cannot be fully sustained. Fifty years back the writer imported from Holland salts made by being pressed in metallic moulds and from England glass candlesticks and table centre-bowls, plain, with pressed square feet, rudely made, somewhat after the present mode of moulding glass. That would put the date at c.1815, and in fact we know that articles with pressed square feet were being manufactured in this country at the end of the eighteenth century.'
Thanks for any help on dating as well :)
m
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more pics
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Looks much like a pressed salt, the underside engraved and gilded and protected by a cut disc. This technique was much used in Bohemian decorated glass - and in good quality doublewalled silvered glass.
I have a panel cut vessel with a decoration on the bottom depicting a Czech minister with a b_ loody nose. Political glass from the 1860s/1870s. It demonstrates how mirror inserts were used to protect the decoration.
It has a nodding relationship to Zwischengold which is leaf gold decorated inserted into another vessel of a similar shape, so the whole vessel is double walled and the gold leaf wedged between them.
The items that Slack mentions are the so-called lemon squeezer feet which came into use in French and Irish glass circa 1790. Pressing feet and handles etc. is much older than the first pressing machines which could make a complete product (albeit with limitations) in one cycle.
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Thanks Ivo.
Debating rather than disputing here :)
I understand the difference between this and the various forms of double walled Zwischengold (full wall, part wall etc) beakers and the medallion glasses where this is inset as a Zwischengold medallion into the wall of the beaker or goblet. And that these are gold leaf with the decoration drawn onto the gold leaf.
However, I know there are also Zwischengold beakers that are enamelled as well as having the decorated gold leaf but still called Zwischengold, as there are those that have enamelled medallions set into the walls with a gold leaf surround, also called Zwischengold despite the enamelling.
Obviously I can see there is a difference in difficulty of technique between that of making two glasses to fit inside each other or cutting a hole in the wall of a beaker to insert a medallion, and the comparative simplicity of decorating the bottom of a salt and covering it with a glass panel.
But to illustrate the reason I’m asking about the age of the salt, I believe Zwischengold means gold leaf (sometimes silver used as well as enamels ) sandwiched between two layers of glass - I ‘think’ my salt is done with gold leaf not gold enamel/paint and has been protected with two layers of glass.
I agree, I think the decoration was engraved on the base of the salt before the panel was put on. However, as I say I 'think' it has then been decorated with gold leaf rather than gold paint or enamel. Then the coloured back appears to have been coloured in the same way as the red backs seen on old Zwischengold beakers in that it has little tiny particles/flecks of colour floating in it. As far as I can see, the decoration doesn’t look dissimilar to this Zwischengold goblet medallion here dated to early 1700’s (not suggesting my salt is that early at all, just dating for future reference)
http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/Balustroid%20Glasses?product_id=278#.Uupzifl_tu4
The base of the salt has a hand cut bevelled edge and the glass panel that backs it is hand done.
So the technique and the materials used, look old to me, but all done on what looks to be a pressed salt.
I copied out quite a large portion of the comments from Slack but within that he was also referring to pressed glass salts as mentioned here when discussing pressed glass in America --
‘…in his Reminisces of Glass Making published in 1865:
"Although it has been commonly believed here that the invention originated in this country, the claim cannot be fully sustained. Fifty years back the writer imported from Holland salts made by being pressed in metallic moulds … .That would put the date at c.1815…’
So those are the reasons why I was querying the age of the pressed glass of the salt.
m
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I'm wondering if this might be from La Granja San Ildefonso.
I have searched and found two salts from there. They are very similar but the top rim doesn't appear to have pressed marks as mine does. Although the shape of the salt with the ridges looks similar. The two there look as though they could have been pressed in a mold but then finished by hand cutting/polishing on the top rim and bottom and bevelled edges if you see what I mean. Their shape and finish reminds me of a portrait salt I had. They are gilded with flowers and the gilding is in remarkable condition which leads me to wonder whether it has also been protected on the base by a glass disc cover. They date to c.1780.
So now I am wondering if this flowered salt of mine might originate from La Granja rather than Bohemia :)
m
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I think I would give this a definite identification of La Granja San Ildefonso. Dated to c.1770/1780 based on the way it is engraved and gilded and the date given for the salts in the museum in this shape and design.
Having gone through a fair portion of the inventory now, La Granja appear to have been fond of designs incorporating baskets with flowers in them :)
tumbler with similar flowers here
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE27279/16
Lidded bowl with different basket and flowers here
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE19075
glass here
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE00875
The museum contain two salts with similar style and style of gilding. I've not checked the whole inventory for a similar design of the flowers and basket but have found a piece in a book that does have this design - see below.
The difference is that they do not appear to be protected on the base by the green coating and glass disc, although they may be protected by a plain glass disc that cannot be seen in the photos
Inventory number CE27279/20 dated c.1780 in the Museo Nacional des Artes Decorativas.
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE27279/20
In the book Glass by George Savage (This edition first published 1972 by Octopus Books and copyright George Weidenfeld and Nicolson Ltd)
he shows on page 72, a shaped dish c.1765 (possibly gilded but may just be engraved, difficult to tell in a black and white photo) with the basket and flowers and leaf stems and the flowers appear to be identical including having fourteen petals. I'm confident the salt and plate are from the same source.
I think that's a firm identification and it raises two interesting questions:
1) The 'Zwischengold' portrait salts are always taken to be German/Bohemian. Were they from La Granja? Are they really Bohemian? I've not yet seen a source in a book that identifies them with an original source. Has anyone?
Or were the portrait salts Bohemian and this is Spain's version of the 'in vogue at the time' glass. Spain like green I think, which would explain the green background.
There is a ewer in the museum that is clear with the gilding and also has some green enamelling on it, dating to a similar period.
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=41&Museo=MNAD&AMuseo=MNAD&Ninv=CE01747&txt_id_imagen=1&txt_rotar=0&txt_contraste=0&txt_zoom=10&cabecera=N&viewName=visorZoom
2) If my salt which is part pressed part cut was made around last third 18th century were La Granja making pressed glass then?
m
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Pressed glass wasn't invented until the 1820s; that isn't to say if yours is that old that it wasn't moulded in some way
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Pressed feet, handles and finials were made on hand presses from the17th/18th century onward, automatic pressing machines were ingroduced in the early 19th century.
La Granja used many techniques, most of them fairly innovative for the time. They made not just cut and gilded glass but also real Zwischengold, enameled glass, finely blown and gilded tableware, up to even hollow blown silvered glass.
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just for easy comparison
adding a pic of the salt as above and also a portrait salt I had
The repetitive line gilding and little bows that can be seen on the portrait salt are also design devices that La Granja used (amongst other makers).
Does anyone know where the gentleman might hail from given his dress?
m
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Further to my query on where the gentleman might hail from
here is a 'Portrait of a Gentleman, Spanish School 18th century' from Christie's
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/spanish-school-18th-century-portrait-of-a-5453474-details.aspx
His dress is remarkably similar to the portait salt dress, less so the hair :)
in fact his face looks very similar as well ;D
In fact I think from the style of dress that the dates of 1770/1780 might be bang on. His hair maybe in a ribbon but not possible to see in the portrait.
http://www.celticwebmerchant.com/en/18th-century-gentleman-wig.html
m
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Think Mozart for the era.
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This portrait salt has similar gilding around it to the gilding on my flowers (La Granja) salt - i.e. what looks like three leaves, then a berry, then three leaves then a berry design.
http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Glass-/Misc--Antique-Glass/Antique-German-glass-salt-with-portrait--late-18th-century
Ivo, the Mozart link might be why they are thought of as German/Bohemian, because Mozart is probably the most commonly known figure for that era?
There is always the option that they could have been made in more than one place of course. And of course, that the engraved design could be copied/similar. I seem to recall a discussion on here re designs found on La Granja (?) glasses are also found on Bohemian (?)glasses as thought they were copied from a catalogue of designs.
However, regardless, they are very rare now, I don't often see a portrait salt at all and I've never ever seen another green flowers salt apart from one which I thought might be the same one possibly.
I'm wondering about the Corning research - i.e.whether the green used in mine (actually blue specks I think) is made in a similar way to the red they are researching.
Edited to add -
hmm, I've found a description of a journey someone took in 2003
GLASS NOTES & OTHER MUSINGS FROM A RHINE-MAIN-DANUBE RIVER TRIP
(August 28-September 12, 2003)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER/2003-10/1067600365
within their description they say about the Glasmuseum Wertheim they found eight of the portrait salts id'd as Bohemian -
'Later we visited
the Glassmuseum Wertheim which had thousands of interesting items. Among them
were eight "doppelwand" (double wall) salts of the type known to open salt
collectors (we have four). They were displayed as Bohemian and attributed to the
period 1770. I believe we have now positively identified this type salt as
Bohemian of this period. This is the third such attribution we've encountered in
Europe. '
Interesting ... there is no source for the assertion by the Museum that they are Bohemian. Not to say they aren't of course. But museums have sometimes the incorrect label on things. otoh, it might indicate they were made in more than one place?
Mods - the person's article is copyrighted - could you remove the quote and link above if it's not allowed please? Thank you.
m
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Interesting opinion on La Granja glass from the book Glass by Edward Dillon published 1907
page 250
'Before the end of the seventeenth century, the general decline so noticeable in all the industries of Spain spread, it would seem, to the glass-works. Workmen were now obtained chiefly from the Low Countries, and in addition much glass was imported by sea from Antwerp. To how low a state the glass industry had fallen at this time may be inferred from the fact that orders for ‘Mexico and the Indies’ had to be executed abroad. In the next century, when Spain had lost her Flemish possessions, their place as a source of glass-ware was taken by France. Philip V., about the year 1720, founded a royal glass manufactory near his summer palace of La Granja de S. Ildefonso, and workmen were gathered together from all sources—there were Germans and Swedes as well as Frenchmen. These works were above all established, in rivalry to St. Gobain (p. 235), for the preparation of large mirrors of plate-glass, but all sorts of ‘hollow ware’ were also produced there. This later Spanish glass, made to royal order, is, however, utterly devoid of any interest, and it need not detain us.'
(My underlining)
If only he knew about the GMB ;D
m
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on the questions of:
Where they were made?
and
Are they called Zwischengold?
In the Passau museum I have seen a photograph. It's a poor quality image and angled so cannot see the designs on the salts, but is of the small collection of 9 salts ( I wonder if it is the same collection referred to in the report I quoted a few posts above).
The salts are all layed out in the cabinet in portrait position leading me to believe that the designs on them are either portrait shaped designs (may or may not be miniature portrait people pictures) or are random graphics which enable the salts to be set in portrait position - i.e. not like my flowers and basket picture which would look strange displayed in portrait position rather than landscape.
Two of the salts appear to be similar in shape to my flowers and basket salt shape - but the design appears to be on red and does not appear to be the same design as mine, it looks like spaced blobs so may be single flower head perhaps spaced out on the salt. The others appear to be similar in shape to my portrait salt.
At the time the pic was taken 4 years ago they were in Room 1 Vitrine 2.
The information at the Passau on the cabinet is:
1) The title plaque for that display says - 'Schwarzlot und ZwischengoldMalerei, Bohmen-Schlesien 1700-1780'
-so the salts are in the cabinet titled Zwischengold
2) The plaque that describes that shelf says of it - 'Unten: Spiegel, Schale, Salzbecher und Kreuz - geschliffen, mit Eglomise-Technik, 1730-1780.'
- so the salts in that cabinet date up to 1780 and are described not only under Zwischengold but also as Eglomise-Technik.
- Eglomise-Technik is translated from Wiki description as
'Eglomisé
Eglomisé (French: Verre églomisé) is the name for its own technology in the glass painting with the help of paint colors.
Even in the period of late antiquity (4th century. N. Chr.) Dates back to the beginning of this technique. However, the name refers to the French painter and art dealer Jean-Baptiste Glomy (1711-1786), who in the 18th century the art revitalized, whereupon it reached its perfection in France, Italy, Bohemia and mainly in Southern Germany. In the 19th century it came under repeated use of certain motifs and representations to a kind of mass production.
In the actual art glass panels are on one side painted with paints and then scraped by the artist ornaments or pictorial representations, usually in fine, precise hand of this lacquer surface. The thus created open spaces are designed with gold or silver foil. In the first half of the 18th century, this technique was also taken up by mainly Bohemian glassmakers. This glass mug and other glass drinking vessels were inside lined with wrought gold foils which different motifs (such as representations of hunting, gallant or courtly scenes), finely carved showed. To protect the film inside of these glasses, the so-called intermediate gold glasses, another glass has been used in an exact fit.
In later works, such as the late 19th century, specially prepared (painted) gold or silver foils were applied to the back of the glass plates.
References [edit]
WB HONEY, Verre E., in: The Connoisseur XCII, 1933, p 372-382
G. Swarzenski, Verre E., in: The Journal of the Walters Art Gallery, 1940 S. 55
F. ZAUCHI ROPPO, Vetri Paleocristiani a figure d'oro, Bologna 1969
The large art encyclopedia of PW Hartmann: "Eglomisé"'
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New to this message board. Has there been any additional research or comments since 2015? I collect open salts, and have about 7 of these "dopplewand" salts (the term usually used by fellow salt collectors) with the red background. But I agree that zwichengold is a better term. We have always assumed they were Bohemian, probably late 1700s. I bought mine in the US and the UK, but have seen them in museums in Europe, other collections, and books. I lost my photos of the Passau museum, and can't really remember if I saw some there, like the traveler and salt collector who wrote about his 2003 trip. Your green piece is great. I had never heard of La Granja glass and am now trying to learn about it. I also sat at Corning for a while trying to research this subject. Maybe it was there that I read that the red, or whatever color is on the bottom was actually the adhesive, definitely not pot-colored glass. Thanks for your post.
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hello Robin - welcome to the GMB. In the absence of any further comments attached to this thread then I suspect that what you see remains the current thinking on this particular material. We've had plenty posts and opinions on plain clear glass salts over the years, but these are different entirely, and probably attract the attention of far fewer people. No doubt m (flying free) will tell me if I'm wrong :)
Regret these are not an area of personal interest, other than the fact that I picked up a matching pair some years back - probably from a boot sale or antiques market - don't now remember, and always possible I've posted these on the Board previously.
Seeing my own in the flesh so to speak, my thoughts are that the silver and gold decoration is created by foils of some description - the material appears too thick to be real leaf, and the silver outlines look too intricate to have been painted, but no doubt since this is your area you will have a far better knowledge than me. As to the red colour, my thoughts are that this is in the form of an ink, but again I'm unsure.
Apart from some edge bevelling, I was going to say that mine were entirely moulded, but looked at under a loupe there appear to be remains of grinding marks on some of the surfaces - although no doubt in the first place the shape is simply a moulded blank.
On the underside, the oval insert remains proud of the main surface by at least 1 mm or perhaps a tad more.
As to provenance, date or geographical origin, regret I've no idea - other than suggesting that mine have a second half C19 look, and possibly Bohemian.
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Mine was confirmed as La Granja by someone who'd visited the museum iirc.
The Corning are/were researching the red colour used to cover the gilded decoration (see previous links).
m
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Paul I'm not sure your description of the red colour as an ink is right. I can't remember the details but this is what the Corning are researching i.e. the constituent of the red colour iirc. I thought I'd put a link to the Corning research but I haven't. I'll have a look for it now and post if I find it again.
m
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you may well be correct m - the red on mine could well be created by something else ................ though its appearance gave the impression of how an ink might perform i.e. something with a very low viscosity akin to a stain or dye perhaps. But the glue has lasted well ;D
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Thanks, Paul & m. I'm away from home and cannot edit my photos. I had wanted to show you some of my salts. One interesting one looks like the normal painted/foiled design on a red stained background but when you turn it over and look at the disc side it appears green Don't know what properties would account for that. Will post pic in next 48 hrs
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Sorry, I have looked for the Corning research ( which I know is on the site somewhere and I know they are researching what the red was made of and what the glue is, in order to conserve one of their pieces) , but I cannot find it again now. I find their site extremely hard to navigate and can't think where I would have found it before.
m
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These may be of interest , currently on offer .
eBay item number:282692155682
cheers ,
Peter.
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the red staining seen in my salts reminded me of the shade of a microscopy stain we used many years back which is/was called mercurochrome - it's a bright red/carmine colour and was a stain used commonly in entomological preparations. Very thin and penetrating.
I suspect it has been around for years - just a thought.
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I don't think this was the research I'd come across before (I thought that was more recent but could be wrong), but this piece of research appears to date to 1980 and is very interesting. It's worth reading the whole report however -
See page 28 of the report for a description of the red coloured vehicle on the back of the gilt or silver decoration of the medallions
https://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/collections/85/8595D55B-378A-4400-91C2-B7D20E08F616.pdf
page 28
'...The red pigment is dispersed throughout its
vehicle as fine particles having a strong, pink,
transparent color. They can be seen at magnifications
of -40 X . The color of the particles at a
microscopic level is better described as "rose"
than "deep-red," although the latter is an accurate
description of the color of the film in bulk....'
and
'... Two possibilities considered for identification
of the red pigment were dragon's blood and rose
madder. Dragon's blood seemed a likely choice,
because it is traditionally thought to have been
used as a red varnish in association with gold
decoration. While it has not been strictly eliminated,
it now seems unlikely that the red pigment
is dragon's blood. Samples of modern dragon's
blood, in the form of an orangish-brown resin,
transparent in small pieces, were found to be
soluble in ethanol and unaffected by dilute aqueous
sodium hydroxide solution. In both these
features it is unlike the red pigment under investigation.
In addition, the orange-brown color ofthe
modern dragon's blood under the microscope is
distinctly different from the characteristic rose
color of "the unknown."
In contrast, however, the microscopic appearance
of the pigment from the Zwischengoldglas is
virtually identical to that of a pink powder found
in a small Egyptian glass bottle of Roman date.
While that seems an unlikely place to look for a
parallel, that powder had previously been identified
as rose madder by one of the authors (Robert
Brill). Particles of the two pigments have exactly
the same color, transparency, appearance under
ultraviolet illumination,14 lack of birefringence,
and more-or-less indefinite shapes. Having not
come across evidence to the contrary, we proceeded
on the assumption that the red pigment is
rose madder, although there are in fact other
candidates. Red gum accroides, which seems to
match at least some of the properties of the Zwischengoldglas
pigment, is one. The yellow form of
gum accroides has been used most frequently as a
yellow dye, along with gamboge and saffron, to
produce "gold" varnishes for bright metal surfaces
such as tin foil and silver. Much less known is a
similar use for the red gum. This resin is thermosetting,
obtaining greater hardness and becoming
virtually insoluble upon hardening. Furthermore,
it is totally soluble in aqueous sodium hydroxide
solution. Mixed with shellac and spirit alcohol, it
frequently saw use as a red varnish stain for metal.
The lac dyes are another possibility. '
Under the section headed 'Summary of results' on page 33 it is stated:
'5. The red pigment is probably rose madder. '
However, this relates to investigations on a variety of zwischengold glasses and they provide a list of the objects at the beginning of the research. There is no mention of small glass bowls with applied metal and coloured sandwiched decoration (i.e. what I have suggested are zwischengold salts).
m
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To add to the information in my post above -
Winsor and Newton have this to say about Rose Madder
Ref source: http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/discover/articles-and-inspiration/spotlight-on-colour-rose-madder
'Rose Madder is a distinctive rose coloured pigment made from the roots of the common madder plant, Rubia tinctorum. It is a transparent pigment with granulating properties in Water Colour. A natural organic lake pigment, it was first used as a dye for fabrics. Evidence of its use can be found in ancient Greek, Roman and Egyptian cloths as far back as 1500 BC. Cloth dyed with madder root pigment was even found in the tomb of Tutankhamun. Considered the most stable natural pigment, it was very sought after and was brought to Europe by the crusaders. By the 13th century, it was being cultivated across Europe, notably in the Netherlands as their sandy soil provided a favourable environment for the plant.
(my bold - I thought this was interesting for a particular reason - please see my notes at the bottom of this post)
However, the production of madder dye was costly and by 1860, Great Britain was importing madder at the value of Ł1.25 million a year. It was necessary to find a better, more reliable method making of the pigment. The renowned colourist George Field made extensive study of the madder plant and in 1804, discovered a more efficient process of extracting the dye and making a stronger, more vibrant pigment. William Winsor understood the importance of George Field’s research and acquired Fields’ notes and experiments following his death in 1854. These 10 volumes formed a basis of some of the colour recipes for the then newly founded Winsor & Newton Company.
The production of Rose Madder is still based on the recipes of George Fields, which Winsor & Newton have exclusive access to and remains a unique pigment with varying shades of rose, browns and purples that cannot be duplicated. Though alizarin (a dye derived from madder) was later synthesised in the 19th century making it far more affordable, the two colours should not be compared. Rose Madder retains a soft depth and richness unlike any other rose available.
Available in Watercolour and Oils, Rose Madder is an excellent glazing and watercolour pigment. Artists such as Jan Vermeer, J. M. W. Turner, Constable and Holman-Hunt and James Abbott Whistler have used the unique pigment to great effect.'
Notes:
I bolded the sentence above relating to the Netherlands because of the coincidence of me writing in my original post:
' 'Raymond Slack,English Pressed Glass says of pressed glass
page 13
'There has been considerable controversy as to whether this process originated in America or Europe. ... However the man often credited with the invention of pressed glass, the American Deming Jarves of the Boston and Sandwich Glass Company, himself acknowledged the European origins of the process in his Reminisces of Glass Making published in 1865:
"Although it has been commonly believed here that the invention originated in this country, the claim cannot be fully sustained. Fifty years back the writer imported from Holland salts made by being pressed in metallic moulds and from England glass candlesticks and table centre-bowls, plain, with pressed square feet, rudely made, somewhat after the present mode of moulding glass." '
That would put the date at c.1815, and in fact we know that articles with pressed square feet were being manufactured in this country at the end of the eighteenth century.'
m
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Thanks for ebay alert. They also used the word eglomise. Here are some of my salts of this type. Does anyone think the big rock with the boats is Gibralter? Of the portraits, I've found more men than depictions of women. They seemed to love those parasols. Interesting notion that there was a copybook for these designs. Any source examples?
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is it possible to upload your pictures as 600 x 400 pixels as it's impossible to see the detail at the current size.
I love the one at the bottom - great picture.
What was the reference source for there being copybooks of these designs?
I have seen somewhere that they were sometimes produced as marriage salts (so man and woman pairs).
m
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So sorry I haven't got the hang of how to post photos. Seems a waste to post each pic separately but maybe that's the only way to get them large enough. This will show a gentleman entering an estate.
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Another "doppelwand", or zwischengold salt, that has a red background when looking into the bowl, but when seen from the reverse, looking at the flat disc, it appears more green. BTW, when I resize to 400x600, I get a warning that the file is too big to post.
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Salt, probably Bohemian, showing a rock plus boats
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typical images found in salts called zwischengold or dopplewand-males with wigs
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I could be very wrong Robin, but I had a feeling that perhaps the man was doing more than just entering an estate - almost as though he was standing in front of something we should recognize - or even about to sing. :) Very attractive selection and thanks for posting.
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Hi Robin. You can post four images of that size per post. The limit is four images each of up to 125 kb per post
Lovely salts BTW
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Just an observation but something caught my eye!
In this document (Pressglas Korrespondenz 2014-1 , Seite 5 von 13 at the top left hand there are two pressed glass egg cups dating to Late 18th ! (as far as I can see from the translation of the information courtesy of google translate).
https://docplayer.cz/11891199-Form-geblasenes-gedrucktes-und-gepresstes-glas-gefunden-bei-ausgrabungen-der-nova-hut-bei-svor-luzicke-hory-rohrsdorf-lausitzer-gebirge.html
translated part:
'Presses - bowls for eggs, etc. [Lisování - misky na vajíčka apod] Small objects are pressed, the shape of which is based on simple geometric shapes, but also in more complex shapes. We first describe small bowls used for serving and eating eggs [34]. They are often made of solid colorless glass of various shapes. The oval shape with concave perimeter is dated to the late 18th century (fig. 8a), oval with arcuate perimeter to around 1800 (fig. 8d) (fig. 23); others with an octagonal plan (Fig. 9b) and a tapered base as an octahedron are dated to the same period (Fig. 9c); an identical object was found during research at the location of the glassworks [Preissler] in Malé Deštné [Deštné v Orlických horách/ Deschnay] in the Eagle Mountains, where the end of the fire's operational period is dated 1765 (Šplíchal - Sula 2004, p. 64 ) (!) [35] [Wiki-pedia EN Deštné _v_Orlických_horách]. These small objects were pressed with a simple hand lever press (Fig. 11).'
So from what I can understand they appear to date late 18th and to have been produced in Bohemia (please correct me if I've misinterpreted this). They were pressed.
But what caught my eye is the distinct similarity in edge design shape to the little portrait salts. Obviously I think the egg cups were round whereas the portrait salts are oval however they are so similar. So ... is this a possible link to Bohemia late 1700s for the portrait salts?
Also interesting that the pressing is described in that article and is of such an early period and also interesting location.
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Fig 9 shows drawings of what they say are the small bowls for eating eggs but they all have the same oval shape as the salts. What they say are egg bowls, we are calling salts….maybe they ate their eggs sideways :D
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I know! I saw that too afterwards. Also wondered if my idea of an egg cup is different to how they were used two hundred years ago. Perhaps they were laid on the bowl to cool a little then peeled and eaten like that?
Indeed Fig 9 a is an ?identical? shape to Robin's salt and to one I used to own. The other design looks remarkably similar, with the fluted edge, to my 'salt' at post 1 in this thread.
The description says:
'Abb. 9, Fragmente von Glasfunden am Standort der nicht mehr existierenden Glashütte Nova Huť, Lausitzer Gebirge [Zlomky skleněného zboží, sběr v místě stanoviště zaniklé sklářské hutě, Nová Huť, Lužické hory]'
off piste here but wondering if perhaps that's why they leant themselves to portraits, so they were for each member of the family for their eggs?
Maybe not salts at all?
That said, somewhere on one of the big salts sites in the US there is a coloured handpainted catalogue reproduced from ... 1832? if my brain serves me well and iirc it shows design versions of small oval bowls. I think I've remembered that correctly but I can't recall if they are denoted as salts in that catalogue? Will need to try and find the reference again.
Here is the history of Nová Huť:
http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/mista/index.php?pg=zmnhutc
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I don’t really think they are anything to do with eggs, the ovals are symmetrical so wouldn’t even take an egg on its side very well (not “egg” shaped).
Might the concave top be for optical effect, like the lens you get on the opposite side of engraving on a becher? Maybe the ones with portraits aren’t meant to be something practical at all.
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Just tried with mine and it's perfect for resting a medium egg or a large egg in it lain on it's side. Definitely would stop an egg rolling off a table or around. However, a hot boiled egg in glass? The glass might crack so that may be a design fault if eggs were indeed the idea.
Not optical. My design is quite complex and gilded and appears exactly the same size back and front.
I can't see why they would be salts though? The design would never be seen as would be under the salt all the time.
Whereas with an egg you could see the design quite easily once picked up to shell it.
I'm on the side of the eggs ;D I think the portraits were a way of personalising the (?) egg cups.
I eat my eggs in a standing upright egg cup but a family member who is Dutch eats her boiled egg left rolling around her plate with her ham and bread roll and then shells it whole when it's cooled a bit.
Interesting!
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Very interesting!
I'll link our similar conversation here https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,72304.0.html
You might be thinking of the Römisch pattern book. He was a Bohemian glass dealer exporting elsewhere in Europe and in the U.S., went bankrupt in 1811, and in 1832 (same year he died) published a pattern book for glassmakers. In his book "The Legend of Bohemian Glass" Antonín Langhamer suggests that Römisch's book was mostly his own designs. Apparently his son was also a glass painter.
Two pages of his pattern book can be found here: https://opensalts.us/References/Catalogs/catalogs-Czech.html (you'll have to scroll a fair way down). Several of the same shapes that we have seen in the Zwischengoldglas salts, and an example of a painted portrait. :)
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Thanks! Romisch it was indeed - I couldn't remember his name last night.
So, back to eggs. I'm wondering if the eggs were laid by the family hens and then one for each family member was collected and popped onto their own egg bowl to await morning breakfast perhaps? Hence the portrait pictures. If yours was visible then no egg for you this morning ;D
I'm surrounded by hens living rurally so I do know they don't just lay you the three or four you require btw :) however perhaps they just kept a couple of hens for laying small quantities for the family if you see what I mean?
The Romisch catalogue seems to show what I understand to be double salts on the top row? So is it an assumption that the entire page is all salts or was there some written narrative to go with those designs where he indicated what each depicted item was used for? Or... are they double egg cups? ;D
The information on page 5 of the above link (re-linked below) is very specific that they are bowls for the serving and eating of eggs:
https://docplayer.cz/11891199-Form-geblasenes-gedrucktes-und-gepresstes-glas-gefunden-bei-ausgrabungen-der-nova-hut-bei-svor-luzicke-hory-rohrsdorf-lausitzer-gebirge.html
Quote from Pressglas Korrespondenz
'Presses - bowls for eggs, etc. [Lisování - misky na vajíčka apod] Small objects are pressed, the shape of which is based on simple geometric shapes, but also in more complex shapes. We first describe small bowls used for serving and eating eggs [34]. They are often made of solid colorless glass of various shapes. The oval shape with concave perimeter is dated to the late 18th century (fig. 8a), oval with arcuate perimeter to around 1800 (fig. 8d) (fig. 23); others with an octagonal plan (Fig. 9b) and a tapered base as an octahedron are dated to the same period (Fig. 9c); ...'
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Not optical. My design is quite complex and gilded and appears exactly the same size back and front.
Thanks for checking.
I’m still not convinced by the egg cup idea although the pressglas author certainly seems to state the fact. I suppose as long as you’ve got a plate for your soldiers, you’re good to go ;D
There is this continental one in silver https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4836344 although the bowl in that looks more egg shaped to me. There must be lots of oval egg cups in silver and pot if it was a thing.
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Lovely find of the silver one!
There may be in silver but pot ones less likely as they would have been thrown (out of fashion etc) or discarded as useless as only one left etc. or broken. Look how many single pot plate are found and difficult to match.
Also, in pressed glass of that period which was very early, right at the beginning, it might (I stress the word might) have been easier to simply make a round or oval mold?
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There's another silver one here with what seems to be a round top and oval base perhaps?
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/637/251-a-silver-gilt-egg-cup-probably-18th-century-unmarked
Also a pewter one - one round cup, one definitely ovoid not oval
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/189118
And a Meissen one again with one round cup and one that I think is definitely supposed to be ovoid not oval?
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/580/1789-a-meissen-eggcup-18th-century
And here we have some interesting information on what constitutes breakfast in various countries and how that differed and changed over the centuries:
https://chezjim.com/18c/breakfast-18th.htm
And then for balance, some information on the desirability/availability of salt:
https://the-history-girls.blogspot.com/2022/04/salt-in-17th-and-18th-century-salt.html
So, the very oval shape of these doesn't seem to be a good match for the few silver, pewter and pot egg holders found which seem to have been deliberately made ovoid rather than oval.
I can't see that pressing an oval glass would be easier than using a mold that was ovoid shaped, however ... could it be that in the case of glass an oval shape mold could be used for a variety of pressed items as a whole piece or to form a part of a whole piece, not just egg holders (if that's what they were)?
Interestingly, this listing (no idea whether the sellers description is correct) goes into detail about the double egg cup and says that in Austria and Germany it was customary to break open the egg from the side. Does anyone know if this is true?
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/porcelain-famille-rose-double-egg-cup-qianlong
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Nice finds. “Ovoid” was the word I was looking for :)
So, the very oval shape of these doesn't seem to be a good match for the few silver, pewter and pot egg holders found which seem to have been deliberately made ovoid rather than oval.
And they are all double ended including a spherical bowl.
This site describes the development of the shape of silver salts, mainly English but at the end are a pair of German salts from the period with similar oval bowls….unless they are egg holders!
https://www.ascasonline.org/windowAGOST75.html
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The salts left hand side third row down on this link are interesting because in the Pressglas document there is a glass in a very similar shape:
https://www.ascasonline.org/windowAGOST75.html
Pressglas link here - see top right hand Seite 5
https://docplayer.cz/11891199-Form-geblasenes-gedrucktes-und-gepresstes-glas-gefunden-bei-ausgrabungen-der-nova-hut-bei-svor-luzicke-hory-rohrsdorf-lausitzer-gebirge.html
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Thanks! Romisch it was indeed - I couldn't remember his name last night.
So, back to eggs. I'm wondering if the eggs were laid by the family hens and then one for each family member was collected and popped onto their own egg bowl to await morning breakfast perhaps? Hence the portrait pictures. If yours was visible then no egg for you this morning ;D
I'm surrounded by hens living rurally so I do know they don't just lay you the three or four you require btw :) however perhaps they just kept a couple of hens for laying small quantities for the family if you see what I mean?
The Romisch catalogue seems to show what I understand to be double salts on the top row? So is it an assumption that the entire page is all salts or was there some written narrative to go with those designs where he indicated what each depicted item was used for? Or... are they double egg cups? ;D
The information on page 5 of the above link (re-linked below) is very specific that they are bowls for the serving and eating of eggs:
https://docplayer.cz/11891199-Form-geblasenes-gedrucktes-und-gepresstes-glas-gefunden-bei-ausgrabungen-der-nova-hut-bei-svor-luzicke-hory-rohrsdorf-lausitzer-gebirge.html
Quote from Pressglas Korrespondenz
'Presses - bowls for eggs, etc. [Lisování - misky na vajíčka apod] Small objects are pressed, the shape of which is based on simple geometric shapes, but also in more complex shapes. We first describe small bowls used for serving and eating eggs [34]. They are often made of solid colorless glass of various shapes. The oval shape with concave perimeter is dated to the late 18th century (fig. 8a), oval with arcuate perimeter to around 1800 (fig. 8d) (fig. 23); others with an octagonal plan (Fig. 9b) and a tapered base as an octahedron are dated to the same period (Fig. 9c); ...'
On further reading online, I read that because the silver knives changed the taste of eggs when cut, in Germany the history is to peel your egg to eat it. It would need to have rested on a portrait bowl to cool before peeling surely? ;D
In more contemporary times this could be used: an Eierschalensollbruchstellenverursacher - is that really a word?! The longest word ever?
edited to add - no ... that still belongs to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Eierschalensollbruchstellenverursacher