Topic: Zwischengold salt 1700's/1800's early pressed glass?

[Robin G]

typical images found in salts called zwischengold or dopplewand-males with wigs

[Paul S.]

I could be very wrong Robin, but I had a feeling that perhaps the man was doing more than just entering an estate  -  almost as though he was standing in front of something we should recognize - or even about to sing.               Very attractive selection and thanks for posting.

[Lustrousstone]

Hi Robin. You can post four images of that size per post. The limit is four images each of up to 125 kb per post
Lovely salts BTW

[flying free]

Just an observation but something caught my eye!

In this document (Pressglas Korrespondenz 2014-1 , Seite 5 von 13 at the top left hand there are two pressed glass egg cups dating to Late 18th !  (as far as I can see from the translation of the information courtesy of google translate).

https://docplayer.cz/11891199-Form-geblasenes-gedrucktes-und-gepresstes-glas-gefunden-bei-ausgrabungen-der-nova-hut-bei-svor-luzicke-hory-rohrsdorf-lausitzer-gebirge.html

translated part:

'Presses - bowls for eggs, etc. [Lisování - misky na vajíčka apod] Small objects are pressed, the shape of which is based on simple geometric shapes, but also in more complex shapes. We first describe small bowls used for serving and eating eggs [34]. They are often made of solid colorless glass of various shapes. The oval shape with concave perimeter is dated to the late 18th century (fig. 8a), oval with arcuate perimeter to around 1800 (fig. 8d) (fig. 23); others with an octagonal plan (Fig. 9b) and a tapered base as an octahedron are dated to the same period (Fig. 9c); an identical object was found during research at the location of the glassworks [Preissler] in Malé Deštné [Deštné v Orlických horách/ Deschnay] in the Eagle Mountains, where the end of the fire's operational period is dated 1765 (Šplíchal - Sula 2004, p. 64 ) (!) [35] [Wiki-pedia EN Deštné _v_Orlických_horách]. These small objects were pressed with a simple hand lever press (Fig. 11).'

So from what I can understand they appear to date late 18th and to have been produced in Bohemia (please correct me if I've misinterpreted this).  They were pressed.

But what caught my eye is the distinct similarity in edge design shape to the little portrait salts.  Obviously I think the egg cups were round whereas the portrait salts are oval however they are so similar.  So ... is this a possible link to Bohemia late 1700s for the portrait salts?

Also interesting that the pressing is described in that article and is of such an early period and also interesting location.

[Ekimp]

Fig 9 shows drawings of what they say are the small bowls for eating eggs but they all have the same oval shape as the salts. What they say are egg bowls, we are calling salts….maybe they ate their eggs sideways

[flying free]

I know!  I saw that too afterwards.  Also wondered if my idea of an egg cup is different to how they were used two hundred years ago.  Perhaps they were laid on the bowl to cool a little then peeled and eaten like that?

Indeed Fig 9 a is an ?identical? shape to Robin's salt and to one I used to own.  The other design looks remarkably similar, with the fluted edge, to my 'salt' at post 1 in this thread.
The description says:
'Abb. 9, Fragmente von Glasfunden am Standort der nicht mehr existierenden Glashütte Nova Huť, Lausitzer Gebirge [Zlomky skleněného zboží, sběr v místě stanoviště zaniklé sklářské hutě, Nová Huť, Lužické hory]'

off piste here but wondering if perhaps that's why they leant themselves to portraits, so they were for each member of the family for their eggs? 
Maybe not salts at all?

That said, somewhere on one of the big salts sites in the US there is a coloured handpainted catalogue reproduced from ... 1832? if my brain serves me well and iirc it shows design versions of small oval bowls.  I think I've remembered that correctly but I can't recall if they are denoted as salts in that catalogue?  Will need to try and find the reference again.


Here is the history of Nová Huť:

http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/mista/index.php?pg=zmnhutc

[Ekimp]

I don’t really think they are anything to do with eggs, the ovals are symmetrical so wouldn’t even take an egg on its side very well (not “egg” shaped).

Might the concave top be for optical effect, like the lens you get on the opposite side of engraving on a becher? Maybe the ones with portraits aren’t meant to be something practical at all.

[flying free]

Just tried with mine and it's perfect for resting a medium egg or a large egg in it lain on it's side. Definitely would stop an egg rolling off a table or around.  However, a hot boiled egg in glass? The glass might crack so that may be a design fault if eggs were indeed the idea.

Not optical.  My design is quite complex and gilded and appears exactly the same size back and front.

I can't see why they would be salts though?  The design would never be seen as would be under the salt all the time.
Whereas with an egg you could see the design quite easily once picked up to shell it.

I'm on the side of the eggs    I think the portraits were a way of personalising the (?) egg cups.

I eat my eggs in a standing upright egg cup but a family member who is Dutch eats her boiled egg left rolling around her plate with her ham and bread roll and then shells it whole when it's cooled a bit.

Interesting!

[CL]

Very interesting!

I'll link our similar conversation here https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,72304.0.html

You might be thinking of the Römisch pattern book. He was a Bohemian glass dealer exporting elsewhere in Europe and in the U.S., went bankrupt in 1811, and in 1832 (same year he died) published a pattern book for glassmakers. In his book "The Legend of Bohemian Glass" Antonín Langhamer suggests that Römisch's book was mostly his own designs. Apparently his son was also a glass painter.

Two pages of his pattern book can be found here: https://opensalts.us/References/Catalogs/catalogs-Czech.html (you'll have to scroll a fair way down). Several of the same shapes that we have seen in the Zwischengoldglas salts, and an example of a painted portrait.

[flying free]

Thanks!  Romisch it was indeed - I couldn't remember his name last night. 

So, back to eggs.  I'm wondering if the eggs were laid by the family hens and then one for each family member was collected and popped onto their own egg bowl to await morning breakfast perhaps? Hence the portrait pictures.  If yours was visible then no egg for you this morning 

I'm surrounded by hens living rurally so I do know they don't just lay you the three or four you require btw however perhaps they just kept a couple of hens for laying small quantities for the family if you see what I mean?

The Romisch catalogue seems to show what I understand to be double salts  on the top row?  So is it an assumption that the entire page is all salts or was there some written narrative to go with those designs where he indicated what each depicted item was used for?  Or... are they double egg cups? 

The information on page 5 of the above link (re-linked below) is very specific that they are bowls for the serving and eating of eggs:
https://docplayer.cz/11891199-Form-geblasenes-gedrucktes-und-gepresstes-glas-gefunden-bei-ausgrabungen-der-nova-hut-bei-svor-luzicke-hory-rohrsdorf-lausitzer-gebirge.html

Quote from Pressglas Korrespondenz
'Presses - bowls for eggs, etc. [Lisování - misky na vajíčka apod] Small objects are pressed, the shape of which is based on simple geometric shapes, but also in more complex shapes. We first describe small bowls used for serving and eating eggs [34]. They are often made of solid colorless glass of various shapes. The oval shape with concave perimeter is dated to the late 18th century (fig. 8a), oval with arcuate perimeter to around 1800 (fig. 8d) (fig. 23); others with an octagonal plan (Fig. 9b) and a tapered base as an octahedron are dated to the same period (Fig. 9c); ...'