Topic: Stuart or Harrach ?

[KevinH]

Thanks David, fascinating info. I appreciate the point about possible copyright issues, but if feasible, stills from DVD (or video) would be superb.

I tend to agree with your comment about the Satin vase with the "peacock tail" being outside the range of what we are discussing here. But since the naming is very similar it is useful to know about it, if only to eliminate it from the the other clues.

Perhaps this subject could make a good article for, say, a future issue of the Glass Cone - if, as you say, somebody could find the time to dig a little further into the available record books.  

[David Hier]

I will see if I can get some stills from the DVD footage.

I will also take some images of some of the glass I have mentioned. These should help to illustrate the varying techniques and designs used by various manufacturers (it will probably be 2-4 days before I can do this).

I am sure that an informative article could be put together. This would involve a lot of work and someone would have to invest a lot of time sifting through the archives of the various makers. Something of a momentous task!

[paradisetrader]

Bernard C wrote:

Jackson attributes two colour green peacock's eye glass to Stuart, with an introduction date of around the turn of the century. She also notes a citron and chocolate version which I have not seen.

David Hier wrote:

I think Jackson might be talking about a ruby over citron variant, where the greeny-yellow base colour makes the ruby trails look chocolate in colour. My parents own an example, so I will take a photo when I get the chance

We can't really assume that. She may have been talking about the 2 colour trails but in either case, from your reports of the catalogues David, if I am reading them right, neither would be Stuart ? Or do you knmow that this varient is ??

Here are examples of what looks to be the ruby over citron variant:
http://julia.hanovercomputer.com/lamp/jun06/catalog/pages/62984.htm

[David Hier]

The vase on the far left is a fairly close match to the colouration of the ruby over citron piece my parents own. I will post an image later today.

I know that I can't assume that the chocolate variant is actually ruby over citron, but the description is such a close match it seems too much of a coincidence.

I'm not sure why you think the ruby over citron pieces can't be Stuart's. The shape and tooling on the eyes certainly seem to match other Stuart's pieces I have seen.

As I have mentioned earlier, Webb's designs don't appear to have any tooling to the eyes of the peacock trails, which might rule them out. Richardson's pieces appear to feature eye tooling that makes the central eye of the feather protrude out significantly, which may also rule them out as the maker. As for Harrach, I haven't seen enough examples to make a judgement, but my gut feeling tells me that these examples (ruby over citron) aren’t continental.

No one can know for certain without finding the exact patterns in the maker's records.

I have finally managed to put together some images.

The first set of images show what could be an example of the Stuart's 'chocolate' variant, which has been mentioned in previous threads:

http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/peacock.htm

The next set of images show two very different examples:

http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/peacock2.htm

The vase on the left has not been attributed, but the 'peacock eye trails' are distinctive in that they do not feature any tool-work in the centre of the eye. The trails on this piece are very similar to those illustrated in the Webb's pattern books (sorry no images yet).

The bowl on the right is by Richardson's (similar to a piece featured in Mervyn Gulliver's book - see previous posts for details). Note how the 'eyes' have a centre that is a different colour to the trail. The centre of the eyes also protrude quite significantly. Perhaps this is a signature feature unique to Richardson's?

The third page of images shows two examples that appear to be very similar to one another:

http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/peacock3.htm

What you can't see very clearly, is that both pieces feature eyes that have differently coloured centres. Another feature that doesn't show up clearly is the tool-work on the tall vase. Although the vase on the right looks very similar, it's eyes are mostly smooth (i.e. no tool-work).

The final page of images features another two examples of peacock eye glass:

http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/peacock4.htm

On the left of the page is an epergne, with two close-up images. This piece seems to show a development of the trail design, fanning the head of the trail to meet the edge of the glass.

The image on the right is just another example that I thought I would share with you.

Hopefully the images provided will show just how varied the designs and techniques can be for this type of glass. If someone can link these signature features to designs in pattern books, it should make it easier to distinguish the work of one manufacturer from another.

[BSevern]

David,

The Hajdamach book shows the Webb catalog design on page 436.  They show it as "Posy Bowl with 'Cat Eyes' teardrops."   Design No. 27414, from 1903.

On the same page they show in the center a "Vase with three coloured teardrops."  Design No. 30736, from 1907.

I can't quite tell if Design No. 26113 on the same page is the same style of glass or not, but if so it dates to 1901.

Brian

[Leni]

Just wanted to add my little contribution to this thread  :oops:

Any ideas about this one?  It  is rather more 'lily leaf' than 'peacocks (or any other sort of) eye'  (there are 3 pictures in the gallery) http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2180

The green trails are obviously done in two trails of glass, one over the other, but they don't have the indentation.  Presumably this rules out Richardson.  Is it even English?   :?  

Does it add anything to this discussion or is it merely another distraction?  :roll:

[David Hier]

The Hajdamach book shows the Webb catalog design on page 436.  They show it as "Posy Bowl with 'Cat Eyes' teardrops."   Design No. 27414, from 1903..............On the same page they show in the center a "Vase with three coloured teardrops."  Design No. 30736, from 1907.

Well spotted Brian, you’ve really put the cat among the pigeons with that observation. Both designs clearly show the trails with tooling to the centre of the peacock eye. Obviously they did variants with and without that feature.

Looking at the pattern books they also did other different versions. These feature face-like tooling to the eye of the feather. There are also versions where the trail is segmented, like the body of a snake. They also did versions that were cut/engraved, with extra detail added to the trails.

[David Hier]

Does it add anything to this discussion or is it merely another distraction?

Leni,

Someone posted a very similar piece earlier under this topic. Such designs can be found in the Stephens & Williams pattern books. The designs are part of a range called "Grotesque" ware. Definitely part of the peacock eye family of design.

Here is the Link to the image:

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1765

The 'Grotesque' name could possibly come from one of the French uses of the word i.e. a fanciful style of decorative art.

For any moderators out there.....................with all the images and information included within this thread, would this topic be suitable for the archive?

You could also consider amalgamating the topic with the 'Stevens & Williams bowl - Peacock Feathers' thread.

I may be able to add some images from the Webb's pattern book in the next week, which should also be included.

[KevinH]

Thanks again, David, for the additional info you have posted. I agree that this is a message that should, at some stage, be saved to the archive and would benefit from the details in the S & W thread.

I look forward to any extra images from the Webb pattern books that you can provide.

As has been shown so far, and as is often the case with decorative glassware, there is often a great deal of similarity between English and Eurpean versions of a basic design. Certainly, the Truitts showed examples of pieces with shapes (including some with "Peacock whatever" patterns) that, prior to the publication of their books, many UK fairs dealers seemed happy to attribute as Thomas Webb. And after seeing the books, labels were qucikly changed to read such as, "Harrach" or "Kralik"!

But from comments in this message, the uncertainties are still clearly with us. Mervyn Gulliver's book gave us examples of (stated) Stuarts pieces and yet, as has been shown in this message, we need to also consider Webb and S&W (plus others?) for their similar pieces. And we must not forget to keep an eye on the area of Glen's expertise - the Carnival "Peacock ..." patterns.

I find this utterly fascinating. So much so, that I am (probably!) willing to have a go at a project studying the available Pattern Books of whatever companies are relevant. But first I would need to know where to start. For instance, are the Webb, S&W etc. pattern books at Himley Hall or Kew Records Office, or somewhere else? Should my first contact be through Broadfield House? Perhaps, David, you could email me separately with any info that could get me started on a plan for such a project?

As for the piece that I showed a while ago, owned by a friend, I will hopefully be looking at it again this Saturday. I will try to get whatever details I can about the mark that is on it (which I suspect will be an etched "Stuarts").

[David Hier]

When I find the time I will add images from the Webb's pattern books (if possible).

As for the similarity between English and European glass, in today's cultural climate I find such distinctions merely colloquial, but you certainly raise an important issue.

When it comes to Art Nouveau, the French certainly knew what they were doing: so a distinction between possible continental originators and UK copies would be an interesting study. Although you have to realise that a lot of companies swapped and poached designers and blowers. Complicated stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the best way to look at the 'peacock eye' glass is to see how it reflects a stylistic trend of a period. I don’t think that any one maker started this type of glass, but manufacturers were actually following stylistic trends of the day.....i.e. Dresser and Liberty.
 
One thing I would like to make clear.....my parents both know Mervyn Gulliver personally and I am assured that he would not give provenance to a piece of glass, unless he had personally seen the relevant pattern books etc. If you can find a copy of his book, you will see what I mean.

As for the sources for original pattern books, I will have to check with my father (he is out of the country at the moment), but I suspect that Broadfield House would be a good place to start.

Browsing this message board, there is obviously a good deal of knowledge out there, so perhaps some kind of voluntary 'glass' 'Wikipedia' could be created. That certainly won't happen if it is left to the authorities (mesume curators etc.).