Topic: Identification please ? Thanks

[KevinH]

Although I have no actual proof, one way or the other, I go along with Mark's (and Jackie's) views regarding the points about Murano labels on Chinese weights.

But surely the problem of deceipt was also made even easier by the fact that some outlets in Murano started to display Chinese weights in their windows ... apparently with no indication of the country of manufacture. So, to the buying public, and even to some of the honest dealers, how would they know that the items were not Murano?

Bob Hall's World Paperweights Millefiori & Lampwork (published 2001), showed an image (page 27) of a variety of unmarked or unlabelled Chinese weights in a Murano shop (one of several shops). The prices were stated as between $8 and $20 per item, and this would have been entirley in keeping with the mass-produced, imported products.

[Jackie]

Absolutely true KevH - but as I said in my post a little way back it is the "unscrupulous traders"  who are prepared to sell these chinese weights. As I am sure you know there are an awful lot of stalls in Venice, selling cheap souvenirs I suspect entirely made in China - and so all of their paperweights are Chinese.  There are also a lot of (sorry Venice & Murano - I do love you really) cheap souvenir shops that sell a lot of tack, again I am sure mainly imported en masse from China.  However, the absolute crux of the matter and the whole point of the demonstration is that they should NOT carry a Murano label.  If they will not put a Made in China label, then at least it should have no label at all- as you point out that the weights from Bob's photo in his book had.  But absolutely NOT a Murano label.  Any person worth their salt should be able to look at the Chinese weights selling for 10 Euros and then at the Murano weights selling for five, six or seven ( and up to ten) times as much and realise there is something drastically different!  Having said that poor Venice is flooded with indiscriminate day trippers who are just keen to grab any lump of glass.   The answer just has to be in the labelling and some kind of regulation to enforce it.  As Mark said, they do themselves no favours at all by all this.  It makes me wring my hands in despair each time I go there! By the way Mark - I would say that the problem / practise certainly started a lot longer ago than 4 years.

I do love this subject so dear to my heart being debated here!

[m1asmithw8s]

You're very welcome, Jackie  

My statement re: this problem or practise starting about '4 years ago' specifically refers to the appearance of sellers on ebay selling Chi weights as made in Murano, label or no label.

Notice that nowadays, nary a seller on ebay admits to their weights as being modern Chinese when they put them up for sale whereas 4 years ago, modern weights made in China made up approximately 70% of ebay paperweight listings. An approximate additional 20% were said to be made in Murano.
These have now statistically reversed, and then some! Again, there are very few ''New'' designs here either.
Point being, it's an obvious Fraud and cannot be explained away (though they do try) by this silly notion that Murano makers have commissioned Chinese makers to produce their designs.

I have no doubt that Murano makers are furious, are beside themsleves, and fully realize the damage to their expertise & reputation as well as to their bottom line that this all has done.

[Frank]

I am a little puzzled by the attitudes expressed here, the manufacture of look-alike goods that are subsequently sold as something they are not is a normal part of the collecting world. Usually someone does the research to find out who is making what and where - followed up by publication. As I see it there is a legitimate business need to make a profit and that because of our economic system this involves reduction of costs, particularly for the mass 'throwaway' market. The tourists want a glass souvenir but they don't want to pay the high cost of an art piece. They want cheap and tacky for gifts/ornaments etc. Collecting these type of items has only become popular in recent times and now people are complaining that they do not want these items? In my research I am not interested in the ethics of marketing but in the ethos of production, the social and economic background and so forth.

There were similar feelings expressed about James Hogan using original Whitefriars moulds to make new pieces.

Glassworks in the West are continuously closing down because they are unable to make a profit and they are subject to the same economic pressures. At the same time consumers expect to pay as little as possible. Indeed, few collectors seem willing to pay the retail prices and prefer to wait for the items to show on the secondary market - how often we hear of someone getting a boot fair bargain for 5 pounds that retails for twenty times that, but how often do we hear of a collector having just purchased a superb item at 600 pounds.

Many Vasart weights were set up by the 'women', standards were not particularly high and the production philosophy was baubles for the gift trade, yet these are now avidly collected. Despite Salvador considering paperweights a waste of time he was not averse to 'mass' producing them in this way.

Collectors of souvenir ware can rarely ID the manufacturer of the object, often the objects being made outside of the country of origin. Loads of glass imported to the UK even bears a registered design number that only identifies the importer. On eBay these are invariably listed as British yet there is never an outcry about misrepresentation but it is exactly the same situation as with the out sourced weights.

Much of the Pirelli glassware was imported, decorated and labelled Potters Bar, England. I have yet to identify the manufacturer of any of their glassware.

I know there is a small number of collectors actually researching Chinese weight production and of course there are other countries producing weights for western outlets. Once Chinese economy starts catching up I am sure that glassworks in Africa will be exploited for their cheap labour too.

[Leni]

I think the point is that many venerable old glasshouses on Murano have gone out of business, not entirely but almost certainly in a large part due to the fact that tourists are only prepared to pay low prices for 'souvenir' type weights (and other glass) rather than the higher prices asked for genuine art glass and weights made by local craftspeople.

In these circumstances they are rightly angry that unscrupulous sellers are happy to put fake 'Made in Murano' labels on cheap glass made elsewhere, just to catch the tourist pennies, rather than enouraging people to understand that real quality costs - in time, and effort, and therefore in hard cash, too!  

My only objection is to the blind ranting of a 'certain person' who used to frequent this board, about the 'evil Chinese copyists, stealing the livelihood from poor Muranese craftspeople'!   I wonder if the hard-working Chinese glassmakers, churning out paperweights for very low wages, even know that some unscrupulous importer is claiming that their work was 'Made in Murano'?  I doubt it.  

The important thing is that craftspeople have the right to have their work recognised and valued, and not see something passed off as Murano glass when it isn't!   And the tourists who want 'something for (next to) nothing'  should be educated to understand the real value of Murano glass!

In an ideal world   :shock:   :oops: :roll:

[Simone]

I agree with Leni on this. The American guy is still passing off cheap Chinese weights as Baccarat - and even had a facetted one which sold for over $200 last week.

It's only when people get their paperweights appraised that they realise they've been ripped off!

I hope that one day, the nefarious practice of stealing someone else's name for a cheaper and badly made product will stop - although I can't see it happening any time soon.

[m1asmithw8s]

I agree with Leni & Simone.

I have 2 prior posts above that speak in some detail to several points as to Why it is Utter BS that Murano makers are outsourcing their designs to Chinese makers.
If Frank or someone else can respond to those Specific points I make in those posts and respond with Specific Evidence to refute them, I welcome the debate  

I love you all and this invigorating message board.  

[Jackie]

If this was an audio site you would be able to hear me clapping  - Mark, Leni, Simone and Kevin- but as it is not then I just have to post
" Here, here"!

I agree absolutely with the point that Leni made about the glass houses going out of business specifically because of the cheap Chinese imports.  It was the very reason that 3 Fiori ceased trading.  They used to supply 80% of the shops in Venice with paperweights, but when the Chinese started flooding the market they could not compete in price.  They used  to have a very good Manager there who spoke excellent English and I discussed it with him 5 or 6 years ago when I was out there.  He said that he was constantly contacted by the Chinese glass makers offering to make the 3 Fiori paperweights for him.

Similarly, when I started my website selling Murano paperweights after a very short time I began to receive emails from China offering to make my weights for me, sending photos of their range.  I wish I had printed them off now, instead of just deleting them.

As you said Mark, it is a pleasure to have such an interesting and lively debate on this board.  Thank you Leni for first introducing me to it!