Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?

[flying free]

Yes ... err I do own some other pieces  and need id's on two of them as well as this one 

The point about the bearded figure being chosen to represent King Eurystheus sounds the most plausible explanation actually.  It assumes the final customer will not be able easily to find  the Hamilton engravings anywhere to check, which is also quite plausible - although the vase will have been  expensive in it's day, and therefore perhaps going to a comparatively widely read household?  Nonetheless, I think that's the best explanation.

Now to find who was using the Hamilton engravings for references for their work.
I shall go and do some more digging and reading.


Thank you again.
m

[MatW]

PS: That's the way Eurystheus is normally shown on Greek vases (he is the guy hiding in the vessel). The painters didn't like him too much, it seems...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#mediaviewer/File:Herakles_Eurystheus_boar_Louvre_F202.jpg

[flying free]

oh thanks - very curious to me.
I have much more to go on for searching now. You have really helped with a new angle.

Here are two links to the other pieces I own 
A gigantic vase:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54777.msg310421.html#msg310421

The people seem to be from the engravings as well although I've not checked closely through all of them yet.


A plate that I hope is Russian:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52048.msg295284.html#msg295284
m

[flying free]

Ivo, wracking my brains here,  the new red piece you found in the UK? a bit gilded on top of cream enamel?  can you post a close up of the enamel if you have time please?
Keith, you posted two pieces earlier in the thread.  Do you think the enamelling on them is similar to that cream/biscuit used on my vase?  I might have a possible lead or at least a piece in the puzzle maybe (ever hopeful here )


Thanks so much.
m

[flying free]

accidentally happened upon this on pinterest !

The description here on the museum listing does not say what it's made of.

On pinterest it mentions 'terracotta' made first half 19th century - so 1800-1850.

Curious colour and looks like it could be glass doesn't it? It does say the material is terracotta.  I couldn't find any other terracotta Russian vases so far so was just wondering if something is lost in translation.  It's very hard to tell from the photograph exactly what it is made from.
  I think from what I can make out, that the researcher is Ivan Golsky at one of the museums (Siberia? maybe)

But it has remarkable similarities with the design of mine including the border decoration and rim decoration.

Think I might put this one to bed now? :  Russian? probably? -  first half 19th? probably?

http://xn--80aahc6airewm.xn--p1ai/portal/#/collections?id=4347526

this was the description on Pinterest
'ВАЗА Период создания: первая половина XIX в. Материал, техника: терракота, полихромная роспись Размер: в.78,0; д.37,5 см Место создания: — Номер в Госкаталоге: 4393009 Номер по ГИК (КП): 23213 Инвентарный номер: ПДМП 784-ке Местонахождение Федеральное государственное бюджетное учреждение культуры "Государственный музей-заповедник "Петергоф"More
Russia - Etruscan style
Ivan Golsky
Russia - Etruscan style'
VASE created: the first half of the XIX century. Material: terracotta, polychrome painting Size: v.78,0; d.37,5 cm Place of origin: - in the State Catalogue number: 4393009 Number in GIK (KP): 23213 Inventory number: PDMP 784-ke location Federal State Institution of Culture "State Museum" Peterhof "More
Russia - Etruscan style
Ivan Golsky
Russia - Etruscan style

Thoughts or differing views?

m

[flying free]

This is the pinterest link as the museum website link doesn't appear to be working now 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/356206651758869196/
any thoughts very much appreciated - does it look as though it might be glass rather than terracotta?  I was just wondering why the interior would show as bright imperial yellow as well if it was terracotta.  On the other hand I was wondering how the handles would have been attached if it was glass.  I have seen that they attached them by screwing them on, however these don't look as though they would have been able to do that?
m

[flying free]

The links are working.
I have now been through what appears to be the entire museum collection of vases (in various properties from 'glass to marble).
The glass pieces are varied and include some which are definitely Galle, Daum and Loetz.

On the museum site this yellow piece has no descriptor (in the same way, as far as I could see, that none of the vases do - they all appear to have a number, museum inventory number and that is it). 

The only way they are grouped appears to be by shape (Category - Vase) and by property/material (so the glass vases are all together and come up first, then porcelain vases etc).

HOwever on the pinterest link to the yellow vase it is described in greater detail than just the inventory numbers and item numbers and  as I said above is described as :

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/356206651758869196/

VASE created: the first half of the XIX century. Material: terracotta, polychrome painting Size: v.78,0; d.37,5 cm Place of origin: - in the State Catalogue number: 4393009 Number in GIK (KP): 23213 Inventory number: PDMP 784-ke location Federal State Institution of Culture "State Museum" Peterhof "More
Russia - Etruscan style
Ivan Golsky
Russia - Etruscan style

This is the same for other Etruscan style pieces I found in the online museum collection both in glass and porcelain.  i.e. on the Pinterest link I found , there are a few of the other items from the collection, not described in the collection but have been described in their listing on pinterest as Russian - Etruscan Style and then with further descriptions.
see link here where the large blue glass vase in the middle is on the museum website as is an Etruscan style white bowl with decoration
https://www.pinterest.com/igolskij/russia-etruscan-style/
and on the museum website here with no description:
http://xn--80aahc6airewm.xn--p1ai/portal/#/collections?id=4934619

The poster on pinterest is Ivan Golsky who I think is Dr. Ivan A. Golsky (Omsk, Russia),who appears in this link under one of the photos:

http://www.helenika.ru/index.php?page=photo-mus-2013-en

'Vinogradov Readings – 2013 in St. Petersburg . Мaster Class. November 11, 2013. Visit to the IPM‘s Art Workshop. Familiarization with the Collection of the Shapes. From left to right: Dr. Marina M. Fedorova (Jaroslavl, Russia), Dr. Ivan A. Golsky (Omsk, Russia), Dr. Wasilissa Pachomova-Goeres (Potsdam, Germany), Dr. O.A. Sosnina (Moscow, Russia) and Mrs. Josее Erica Huijzer (Wassenaar, Netherlands)'

I am therefore assuming that further id's have been done and the museum website not updated - and  for now that the description of the yellow vase is at least correct - Russian, first half 19th century.  I assume also that it is yellow (somehow glazed inside and out) terracotta as per the description.

m

[flying free]

Keith re your blue opaline bowl below (I have one as well but with plain gilded lines on it) this link show a red version in a similar size to mine and is attributed as c.1844 possibly Vienna and calls it as Sugar bowl.  It has a silver lid and underplate as you can see.  Very pretty with the silver bits as well.  Their glass is chipped but still special enough to be in the museum collection. 

http://gyujtemeny.imm.hu/web/kozep/56_479_1_FK_1576.jpg
IMM Hungary - museum glass collection

Also an example of blue opaline with the cream gilded enamelling:
dated c.1840- Bohemian
http://gyujtemeny.imm.hu/web/kozep/89_86_1_FK_1462.jpg

These should be ok,have included an opaline 'carafe' as it has similar decor,

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=136108;image

[flying free]

Just adding this here for my reference:

Bukowski's Russian glass jug - the blue appears to be a similar blue to mine, the thickness of the glass and finish at the rim also appears to be similar and the body of the jug has a similar shape to the body of the vase.

Might be nothing but might come in handy in future

https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/559/1214-a-russian-turquoise-glass-ewer-with-stopper-19th-century

Also this vase - similar type of opaline glass again, the thickness of the glass and just something about it:
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/554/1173-a-russian-mid-19th-century-vase

And apologies - I know this thread is getting very lengthy - please just ignore    but if you come across an id please let me know 



m

[flying free]

A possible step forward ... maybe....
Checking Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 pp136,
there are two vases in the group said to be definitely English.  One of them, the one in the centre, is by Bacchus.

The picture depicted on the Bacchus white opaline glass vase is this one, excluding the two figures on the left of which second from left is Iobates (man with beard).  That Iobates picture is on my vase:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Outlines_from_the_figures_and_compositions_upon_the_Greek,_Roman,_and_Etruscan_vases_of_the_late_Sir_William_Hamilton;_with_engraved_borders_(1804)_(14593257849).jpg

So my vase has Iobates from that picture, on the left hand side on mine and then to the right of him this one:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Outlines_from_the_figures_and_compositions_upon_the_Greek,_Roman,_and_Etruscan_vases_of_the_late_Sir_William_Hamilton;_with_engraved_borders_(1804)_(14777534804).jpg

Of note: the link above shows Heracles lion paw carefully positioned to preserve dignity.
The plates dates to 1804 and are from the book
'Outlines from the figures and compositions upon the Greek, Roman, and Etruscan vases of the late Sir William Hamilton; with engraved borders by the late Mr Kirk

The link MatW gave me to the Heidelberg archive picture shows the lion paw in a different position    :
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1791bd1/0182?sid=966ec6a1801f829245687ffc39c059b0

In the Introduction in that book, a funny remark in this context
'The designs, here presented to the public, are the outlines drawn and engraved by that accurate artist, the late Mr Kirk, from the two works of the late Sir William Hamilton;'

So I wonder why the lion paw is in a different position?

The text that I believe appears in the book relevant to this plate says:
'4 PLATE XL. Hippolyta, queen of the Amazons, wore the girdle ofMars, as an emblem of the country she reigned over:Admeta, the daughter of Euristheus, became envious of thishonour, and wished to possess the girdle. In consequenceof this desire, Hercules received orders to procure it.This is the ninth of the labours, which this god under-took at the request of his brother. He immediately wentto the banks of the river Thermodoon, which the Amazonsinhabited. Juno, always at variance with, a'

It ran out at that point but I've found the book online and the text and there's not much more to report.  The author doesn't know what the rays denote.

So, in summary, just getting my head straight, it looks like the depiction on my vase was taken from Mr Kirk's plates.

m