Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?

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ref part of my post above:
'according to this listing the vase was produced by Bercy c.1820
http://www.seblantic.com/up/Opalines/@@sites@2@Product_xx_idProduct--21834__lang--en@@.htm'

This vase was produced according to the listing, by Bercy c.1820s.

From reading this information below, it seems that Baccarat may have had access to that blue colour maybe?

'Despite some successes including the yellow and turquoise opal crystal, le Creusot fell into financial difficulties and in 1832. Baccarat and St. Louis came together, bought the factory and switch off the ovens.Two other factories were founded under the Restauration: Choisy-le-Roi in 1821 and Bercy in 1827. In 1832, a commercial agreement between Baccarat and St. Louis was extended to the manufactures of Choisy-le-Roi and Bercy, which had shown their qualities thanks to an excellent production.

Bibliography: Vincendeau, Christine, Les Opalines, Les Editions de l'Amateur, 1998, pp. 79-146'

The colour and quality of the opaline might indicate France then. 
The style of the vase isn't the same as the one made in the  1820s because of the applied open foot.
The questions that arise at the moment are:
a)  the picture comes from the Kirk engravings, which date earlier than that
b) the type of enamelling and decoration used, which seems to me to not be as sophisticated as it might have been had it been 1840s France maybe?  e.g. Desvignes had been enamelling opaline glass in France using gilding and colours during the 1820s.
However, this biscuit type enamelling may have been similar to that used on Bohemian glass in the 1820s (Egermann),
and it does look similar to some enamelling found on Richardson pieces (ref earlier in thread), and the black outlines were found on Webb pieces of the 1840s/1850s.
c) the matt surface could date to an earlier period as Bohemian glass produced in the 1820s seemed to have a matt surface
for reference see:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5746392_288-vase-bohemia-kreibitz-glass-antique-vintage-old#&gid=1&pid=1
d) the style of the vase with the large knop and applied open foot.  However if you look at the Kreibitz vase above produced in the 1820s it also has that 'clunky' knop.  I am not sure how the foot was applied on that vase though.

So it might be possible that the vase was produced earlier than 1840s.  The opaline, the colour, the matt surface, the large knop, the design from Kirk's books and the type of enamelling might all fall into an earlier period.
The quality is excellent.  I think if it did come from an earlier period it could be French.
However I've not seen anything with this Meander design or Etruscan type design on French glass from that period so far.

It was bought from a dealer in Lancashire in the UK.  In this day and age that probably has no bearing however worth mentioning.

m

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1) Re the William Hamilton book of paintings of his collection of vases ( from which T Kirk's engravings were made), from what I can make out it was published in 1766 in French:

https://archive.org/details/collectionofetru02hami

'Collection of Etruscan, Greek and Roman antiquities from the cabinet of the Honourable William Hamilton
by Hamilton, William, Sir, 1730-1803; Hancarville, Pierre d', 1719-1805

Publication date 1766'

The paintings are presumably as they appeared on the vases as they are quite explicit (not 'cleaned up' as they seem to be in Mr Kirk's engravings).  The pictures on page 280,287 and 425 appear to have similarities with those on my vase in terms of character depicted but it is obvious that the picture on the vase comes from Kirk's designs (1804).



2) In 1814 a second edition of Kirk's engravings was published:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Atna1x1ss3wC&pg=PR2&dq=t+kirk+engravings+william+hamilton+france&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-j7HIuZDcAhWGT8AKHWPiABEQ6AEISTAG#v=onepage&q=t%20kirk%20engravings%20william%20hamilton%20france&f=false

In the introduction page ii  it mentions
 'There has also lately been published in Paris a most beautiful and magnificent work, entitled, "Peintures de Vases Antiques."  The drawings and engravings of which are admirably executed by M.Clener, and accompanied by an elaborate introduction, and a description of the subjects, by M.Millin*.  It is in two volumes, folio, and perhaps the best work upon the subject ever published.'


I guess this is that book - published 1808
https://arachne.uni-koeln.de/arachne/index.php?view%5blayout%5d=buch_item&search%5bconstraints%5d%5bbuch%5d%5balias%5d=Millin1808Vol1&search%5bmatch%5d=exact

Some plates from the book here -
http://library.princeton.edu/news/2014-07-15/two-early-french-publications-%E2%80%9Cetruscan%E2%80%9D-vases
m

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1)Possibly then, potential dates of interest for the vase shape and design of enamelling:


1804 - Kirk's drawings published - from which it looks as though the depiction on the vase was taken. 
Spode appear to have used some of these depictions in the early 1800s.

1808 - Paris publication Peintures de Vases Antiques

1814 - second edition of Kirk's engravings

Late 1840s to early 1850s -  interest in 'Etruscan' style seen on pieces at Great Exhibition

1917 - International fanfare made by Christie's when they sold the Hope collection.  Hope had bought the Hamilton collection in 1801 as an entire collection.  This was sold by a family member in 1917 with much publicity.

http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/100-years-later-the-hope-collection-from-london-to-los-angeles/

Thomas Hope created special rooms to display his art collection in Duchess Street.
Taken from his drawings  in "Household Furniture and Interior Decoration" by Thomas Hope, the V&A (I think) have recreated the Aurora room:
it's the last picture on this link - see the blue ceiling and what appears to be buff coloured designs around the ceiling.  Interesting combination of colours when compared to the vase.

The blog link given above makes some further references to dates:

'Setting a new standard of access, Thomas Hope opened his home to the public. The architect and collector Sir John Soane visited Duchess Street in 1802, just as he was preparing designs for the display of his own eclectic collection (Soane’s London residence, now a charming museum, is definitely worth a visit). Hope continued to collect and eventually transferred many of his ancient sculptures to his country residence, Deepdene, about thirty miles south of London. When Thomas Hope died in 1831, he left his entire estate to his eldest son Henry. Although greatly interested in his father’s collection, Henry was heavy-handed in reorganizing its display. The biggest blow to the elder Hope’s legacy came in 1849 when Henry, eager to finance the construction of his own townhouse, sold Duchess Street, which was quickly demolished. The art collection was transferred to Deepdene, where it remained for over fifty years.'





2)These are the Spode references online.  They took their designs from three sources:
quote
'Greek Pattern Source
The designers and engravers at Spode relied on illustrations from three separate publications for inspiration to develop their Greek series.  These publications endeavored to record and make available to the public Sir William Hamilton's invaluable collection of Greek, Roman and Etruscan vases.   Selected designs on these ancient vases were used to create the center designs for the series.  Exhibited here are prints from all three publications:  The complete Collection of Antiquities from the cabinet of Sir William Hamiltonby D'HANCARVILLE, published in four volumes 1767-1776;  Collection of Engravings from Ancient Vases of Greek Workmanship Discovered in Sepulchres in The Kingdom of The Two Sicilies now in the Possession of Sir William Hamilton, by Wilhelm TISCHBEIN, published in three volumes starting in 1791;  Outlines from the figures and compositions upon the Greek Roman and Etruscan vases of the late Sir William Hamilton, engraved by KIRK and published in 1804. '
http://www.spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/source-prints/greek-pattern-source
m

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I've come across some interesting information regarding the pale biscuity beige yellow enamelling on the  vase.

In the book Baguiers et Verres a Boire du XIXeme siecle, Darnis (ISBN 979-10-90849-12-9)
on page 16 and page 63 he shows some enamelled pieces from Montcenis dating to 1820-1830 (no's 16 and 63).

Both appear to have some decoration using this odd enamel, 16- foxes and 63-Napoleon's horse and the coloured 'ground' the horse is standing on.

I think, from trying to translate the information, that on page 14 it says this curious yellow colour was obtained by high heating when applying the enamel.  There appears to be some reference to it being from Desvignes (enamel decorators as far as I recall).

The thing is, I am really not sure my vase is French.  The style of foot makes me think more Bohemian than French.
However that is the first time I've seen what appears to be that coloured enamel and a discussion about it.
Difficult 

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mm,something similar to the piece no 16 in the book is here in the MAD.  You can click and enlarge the picture but not good enough to see whether the fox is indeed in 'biscuit' yellow enamel or gilding  - maybe the book meant the yellow of the gilding? That said both pieces do looks as though those pictures are matt enamel.
 Wish my French was anywhere good enough to understand  :

https://madparis.fr/IMG/jpg/arton763.jpg

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correction I think I've now managed to understand and translate that information more accurately.  It's not to do with the biscuity beige enamel (which is seen on both those pieces as far as I can make out). 
The information about the yellow is about a slight shadow around the enamel decoration that is caused by the high heating when it was applied.  So not specifically to do with the biscuit beige enamel.

However ... that biscuit beige enamel is the first I've seen outside of my vase.

The pieces date to c.1820-1830 and are from Montcenis. 
They were making beautiful blue opaline glass around that period.

I'm just not entirely sure that the foot of my vase fits with a 'typical' French type of design for a footed piece. That's what is putting me off.

m

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18th century Russian - with what appears to be similar biscuity enamel.
The pictures are also Greek however they are not from Kirk's engravings as they were done in 1804 iirc.

http://www.nasledie-rus.ru/podshivka/pics/9818-pictures.php?picture=981801

I still keep coming back to this yellow vase from a Russian museum collection, says it is terracotta but I'm mystified as to how it might be yellow interior glaze on the terracotta body, so am still pondering if it is yellow glass:
http://xn--80aahc6airewm.xn--p1ai/portal/#/collections?id=4347526

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Interesting -attributed to Kaiserliche Glasmanufaktur St. Petersburg  (Imperial Glass manufactory )

Very similar blue opaline colour and looks to be similar in heft, also appears to have teeny bubbles judging by the base picture:
http://antikes-glas.de/en/glashuette-petersburg/blue-alabaster-glass-vase-stpetersburg-1850-p-425.html?language=en

https://antikes-glas.de/ebay/b223f.jpg

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Can't remember if I mentioned Friedrich Egermann, but 'twas he who introduced biscuit (matt) enamels  on glass in Bohemia:  Source for this link information - Mgr. Eliška Vavříčková,Glass museum Nový Bor

http://www.glassmuseum.eu/dokumenty-muzea/exponat-roku-2017

in 1824 - see the large matt blue glass vase for one of the only two (if my memory serves me right) examples I've ever been able to find:
http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/historie/index.php?pg=clskloe

However, I cannot find anything similar to my vase.

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good close ups of a Russian etruscan black smalt glass vase with hand painted figures on a matt enamel surface:

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-russian-red-and-gilt-decorated-black-smalt-5223947-details.aspx

A RUSSIAN RED AND GILT-DECORATED BLACK SMALT GLASS VASE 
CIRCA 1810, THE IMPERIAL GLASS FACTORY, ST. PETERSBURG, PROBABLY AFTER A DESIGN BY JEAN THOMAS DE THOMON

I'm going to have a quick check through Kirk's drawings to see if there is anything similar.
Also to see if there is any evidence online of the Imperial factory using Kirk drawings.