Topic: Zwischengold salt 1700's/1800's early pressed glass?

[flying free]

I've had a portrait version of these salts before, enamelled portrait with Zwischengold and a red background.  The salt dish it was on was cut.
The red is the ‘usual’ colour found for backgrounds and I've found some research from the Corning Museum of glass regarding restoration of  Zwischengold glasses.  It discusses what the red background was made of (not  'mixed in the pot' red glass I don't believe) as it has little flecks in it - open to correction on this, but I think I've understood the research correctly.  My salt also had the red flecks in.
This green salt is possibly slightly 'unusual' because
a) it is green – I’ve never seen another (apart from it's possible pair – although may have been this salt). 
b) the edge rim is molded – I have seen another portrait version online with a similar edging.  The glass inside the bowl has wreathing in it and creases.  But the base is bevelled at the edge and the applied glass ‘cover’ at the bottom is cut.
The green is made from blue and green flecks in the glass, like the red backgrounds.  The gold is in immaculate condition. 
I know Zwischengold glasses were made later on in the 1800's as I've seen a Russian goblet with enamelled medallions in it dating to 1860's.  But I think it's possible that this salt, because of the way it has been made and the way the green has been used, dates to the late 1700's early 1800's (again open to correction, this is just my observation).
Two questions:
-   Is it early pressed glass?    The base has been cut and bevelled and the glass layer over the gold on green is cut.
-   Are my dates right?

 Raymond Slack,English Pressed Glass says of pressed glass
page 13
'There has been considerable controversy as to whether this process originated in America or Europe. ... However the man often credited with the invention of pressed glass, the American Deming Jarves of the Boston and Sandwich Glass Company, himself acknowledged the European origins of the process in his Reminisces of Glass Making published in 1865:
"Although it has been commonly believed here that the invention originated in this country, the claim cannot be fully sustained.  Fifty years back the writer imported from Holland salts made by being pressed in metallic moulds and from England glass candlesticks and table centre-bowls, plain, with pressed square feet, rudely made, somewhat after the present mode of moulding glass.  That would put the date at c.1815, and in fact we know that articles with pressed square feet were being manufactured in this country at the end of the eighteenth century.'

Thanks for any help on dating as well
m

[flying free]

more pics

[Ivo]

Looks much like a pressed salt, the underside engraved and gilded and protected by a cut disc. This technique was much used in Bohemian decorated glass - and in good quality doublewalled silvered glass.   

I have a panel cut vessel with a decoration on the bottom depicting a Czech minister with a b_ loody  nose. Political glass from the 1860s/1870s. It demonstrates how mirror inserts were used to protect the decoration.

It has a nodding relationship to Zwischengold which is leaf gold decorated inserted into another vessel of a similar shape, so the whole vessel is double walled and the gold leaf wedged between them.

The items that Slack mentions are the so-called lemon squeezer feet which came into use in French and Irish glass circa 1790. Pressing feet and handles etc. is much older than the first pressing machines which could make a complete product (albeit with limitations)  in one cycle.

[flying free]

Thanks Ivo.
Debating rather than disputing here  

I understand the difference between this and the various forms of double walled Zwischengold (full wall, part wall etc) beakers and the medallion glasses where this is inset as a Zwischengold medallion into the wall of the beaker or goblet. And that these are gold leaf with the decoration drawn onto the gold leaf.

However, I know there are also Zwischengold beakers that are enamelled as well as having the decorated gold leaf but still called Zwischengold, as there are those that have enamelled medallions set into the walls with a gold leaf surround, also called Zwischengold despite the enamelling.
Obviously I can see there is a difference in difficulty of technique between that of making two glasses to fit inside each other or cutting a hole in the wall of a beaker to insert a medallion, and the comparative simplicity of decorating the bottom of a salt and covering it with a glass panel.
But to illustrate the reason I’m asking about the age of the salt, I believe Zwischengold means gold leaf (sometimes silver used as well as enamels ) sandwiched between two layers of glass - I ‘think’ my salt is done with gold leaf not gold enamel/paint and has been protected with two layers of glass.

I agree, I think the decoration was engraved on the base of the salt before the panel was put on.  However, as I say I 'think' it has then been decorated with gold leaf rather than gold paint or enamel.  Then the coloured back appears to have been coloured in the same way as the red backs seen on old Zwischengold beakers in that it has little tiny particles/flecks of colour floating in it.  As far as I can see, the decoration doesn’t look dissimilar to this Zwischengold goblet medallion here dated to early 1700’s  (not suggesting my salt is that early at all, just dating for future reference)
http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/Balustroid%20Glasses?product_id=278#.Uupzifl_tu4
The base of the salt has a hand cut bevelled edge and the glass panel that backs it is hand done.

So the technique and the materials used, look old to me, but all done on what looks to be a pressed salt.

I copied out quite a large portion of the comments from Slack but within that he was also referring to pressed glass salts as mentioned here when  discussing pressed glass in America --
 ‘…in his Reminisces of Glass Making published in 1865:
"Although it has been commonly believed here that the invention originated in this country, the claim cannot be fully sustained.  Fifty years back the writer imported from Holland salts made by being pressed in metallic moulds … .That would put the date at c.1815…’

So those are the reasons why I was querying the age of the pressed glass of the salt. 

m

[flying free]

I'm wondering if this might be from La Granja San Ildefonso.
I have searched and found two salts from there.  They are very similar but the top rim doesn't appear to have pressed marks as mine does.  Although the shape of the salt with the ridges looks similar.  The two there look as though they could have been pressed in a mold but then finished by hand cutting/polishing on the top rim and bottom and bevelled edges if you see what I mean.  Their shape and finish  reminds me of a portrait salt I had.  They are gilded with flowers and the gilding is in remarkable condition which leads me to wonder whether it has also been protected on the base by a glass disc cover.  They date to c.1780.
So now I am wondering if this flowered salt of mine might originate from La Granja rather than Bohemia
m

[flying free]

I think I would give this a definite identification of La Granja San Ildefonso. Dated to  c.1770/1780 based on the way it is engraved and gilded and the date given for the salts in the museum in this shape and design. 

Having gone through a fair portion of the inventory now, La Granja appear to have been fond of designs incorporating baskets with flowers in them

tumbler with similar flowers here
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE27279/16
Lidded bowl with different basket and flowers here
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE19075

glass here
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE00875
The museum contain two salts with similar style and style of gilding. I've not checked the whole inventory for a similar design of the flowers and basket but have found a piece in a book that does have this design - see below.

The  difference is that they do not appear to be protected on the base by the green coating and glass disc, although they may be protected by a plain glass disc that cannot be seen in the photos

Inventory number CE27279/20 dated c.1780 in the Museo Nacional des Artes Decorativas.

http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MNAD&Museo=MNAD&Ninv=CE27279/20


In the book Glass by George Savage (This edition first published 1972 by Octopus Books and copyright George Weidenfeld and Nicolson Ltd)
he shows on page 72, a shaped dish c.1765 (possibly gilded but may just be engraved, difficult to tell in a black and white photo) with the basket and flowers and leaf stems and the flowers appear to be identical including having fourteen petals.  I'm confident the salt and plate are from the same source.

I think that's a firm identification and it raises two interesting questions:
1)   The 'Zwischengold' portrait salts are always taken to be German/Bohemian.  Were they from La Granja? Are they really Bohemian?  I've not yet seen a source in a book that identifies them with an original source.  Has anyone?

Or were the portrait salts Bohemian and this is Spain's version of the 'in vogue at the time' glass.  Spain like green I think, which would explain the green background. 

There is a ewer in the museum that is clear with the gilding and also has some green enamelling on it, dating to a similar period.
http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=41&Museo=MNAD&AMuseo=MNAD&Ninv=CE01747&txt_id_imagen=1&txt_rotar=0&txt_contraste=0&txt_zoom=10&cabecera=N&viewName=visorZoom


2) If my salt which is part pressed part cut was made around last third 18th century were La Granja making pressed glass then?




m

[Lustrousstone]

Pressed glass wasn't invented until the 1820s; that isn't to say if yours is that old that it wasn't moulded in some way

[Ivo]

Pressed feet, handles and finials were made on hand presses from the17th/18th century onward, automatic pressing machines were ingroduced in the early 19th century.

La Granja used many techniques, most of them fairly innovative for the time. They made not just cut and gilded glass but also real Zwischengold, enameled glass, finely blown and gilded tableware, up to even hollow blown silvered glass.

[flying free]

just for easy comparison
adding a pic of the salt as above and also a portrait salt I had
The repetitive line gilding and little bows that can be seen on the portrait salt are also design devices that La Granja used (amongst other makers).

Does anyone know where the gentleman might hail from given his dress?
m

[flying free]

Further to my query on where the gentleman might hail from
here is a 'Portrait of a Gentleman, Spanish School 18th century' from Christie's
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/spanish-school-18th-century-portrait-of-a-5453474-details.aspx

His dress is remarkably similar to the portait salt dress, less so the hair
in fact his face looks very similar as well 

In fact I think from the style of dress that the dates of 1770/1780 might be bang on. His hair maybe in a ribbon but not possible to see in the portrait.
http://www.celticwebmerchant.com/en/18th-century-gentleman-wig.html
m