Topic: 18Th Century? Three leaf clover irish? Square Decanter...

[LEGSY]

Hi There, I went to my local antique center and fell in love with this large 11" stoppered decanter appears to be the right stopper too. I thought it looks like clover on the decoration and wondered if that may mean irish?. Also I think its soda glass as its a bit dull when flicked doesn't ring like lead type glass? The shape is square it appears to be very quickly made sharp pontil mark and lots of wear. The circle on the front panel may be an unused place for say brandy to be written or maybe initials im not too sure but seems quite interesting to me I love it.

[Paul S.]

you've bought this for the right reasons by the sound of it, which is how it should be, but my opinion is that this is from the first half/mid C19 in date, but always ready to be corrected.      Earlier bottles would more likely have had either a target/bull's eye, or flattened mushroom design of stopper.
Known as a 'canted square' - canted apparently derives from the flattened corners - mould blown then removed and attached to the pontil rod in order to finish the top rim.        The fact that this is a 'square', and has a sharp pontil scar, are likely reasons for believing this to be older, but as we know sharp scars can occur on a lot of C19 material  -  and, again only my opinion, but the wheel engraving is suggestive of pteridomania - that Victorian passion for depicting images of leafy and ferny flora, and this style had a big fan club which started around c. 1840 ish.    My opinion is that in this instance the clover leaves, if that's what they represent, are not indicative of an Irish origin  -  I've just ploughed through Phelps Warren and engravings showing shamrock do occur, but couldn't see any clover leaves - although have to admit I've really no idea what the difference between the two is.

Unfortunately, your backgrounds are busy and distracting  -  clear glass needs a uniform and preferably dark background to help illustrate detail  -  it's not easy to produce good photos of clear glass, but if you search the Board's archives we've had some very innovative and clever folk who have shared their methodology with hints on how to improve pix for clear glass.      You'll also find the Board's archive a great glossary for meanings and definitions for some of the terms used here............   it saves having to explain terminology each time.

There appears to be a kick in the bottom of this bottle, and the scar might just be one of circular sort, not a full scar, and the kick might be there to avoid the need to remove the scar - i.e. an economy measure possibly.         These hollow scars, if that's what it is, can be an indication of Continental origin  -  the pontil rod was hollow, unlike most British examples which were solid.

No idea as to origin  -  might be from anywhere as these things produced in vast quantities in most countries.     Judging by past experience other replies will probably be deafening in their absence - it would be great if others would join in   -  we live in hope.

[bat20]

I'm thinking continental,maybe Dutch?,i Wonder if the stopper is a match.

[Paul S.]

thanks bat, and you may well be right  -  tell us what makes you suggest Dutch, and what sort of date are you thinking?

The stopper does appear plain and rather basic, so may well be for this bottle which is equally plain and simple.            I meant to ask the op previously, and forgot .............  is the star on top of the stopper cut or moulded?

[bat20]

Only that I've come across a few square soda glass bottles and decanters described as Dutch or German which look similar,no hard science I'm afraid.Some of these were stopper less with no wear suggesting they originally had a cork,dated mid to late 18 century.

[LEGSY]

Thank you for the replies interesting I can confirm the stopper when turned will pick the decanter up if needed not that I would again, And is all hand cut, The base has loads of wear around the corners, The corners are not realy corners as if you put a flat hand on them they are flattened off so in effect 8 sided although very small sides. The new slightly more interesting photos also show the neck isn't very straight or centred quite crude. The pontil scar is very round also but has sharp parts Id imagine done with the continental rod as mentioned above.?

[bat20]

Hi,is there any wear to the inside of the neck where the stopper fits,from the photos I can't tell,thanks.

[LEGSY]

Hi There, The inside of the neck is not ground to fit the stopper like on say Victorian decanters and although it has a few dark lines where the stopper has been I really would of expected more wear if honest. Although i've not owned this type of glass would you agree with the soda glass attribution?

[LEGSY]

Would like to share a picture of some other decanters which I purchased in last couple of days with the one on this post they were quite reasonable price wise which is nice. All under ten pounds. Im not looking for attribution I think im fairly sure on them.
from left too right.
Dutch or german bird and floral decanter 19th century
English spirit decanter c1820 maybe the later version of listed one above.
And a acid etched Scottish thistle/red rose/clover decanter. Maybe stevens & Williams.

[Paul S.]

the canted spirit square is nice (the corners appear to be cut on this one), and you can see the lead colour in the glass - quite different from the earlier non-cut example, and the bevelled lozenge stopper is period...........   a stopper that had quite a long run, starting in the C18 and on into the Regency.    Lovely monogram too - you're probably about right with date I'd think.
The Victorian Greek revival amphora style bottle is nice, but regret no idea if this was S. & W. .........   date wise this shape also ran for a long time and appears anywhere from early 1860s when commercial acid etching started and on even into the early years of the C20  -  they frequently had a star cut base, and the stopper with top nipple looks right.                     Did the seller suggest S. & W.?

Regret I know nothing about German bottles but it's a coincidence that S. & W. produced a two handled 'flask' around the end of the C19 for Victoria's Jubilee and then a little later for George Vs coronation - very much in the style of your example  -  although the piece in the book appears to have lost one of its handles.           Theirs like your had plenty of gadrooning/rigaree, but the decoration was engraved rather than acid etched.

The price you mention sounds exceptional for such pieces.            Soon you should be telling us about decanters - and would suggest you find a copy of Andy McConnell's book  -  well worth the very high price.