Topic: Identification error of Sowerby 1225 amber spill vase

[Medford]

In the Sowerby gallery section there's a pattern #1225 amber spill vase that I believe is not Sowerby but rather is US company Challinor Taylor. I have both a marked Sowerby in blue slag, and and unmarked amber slag one like in the gallery (see my attached photo). If you look inside (file 506/1477) you can see down near the bottom some protrusions in the corners. In my marked Sowerby there are no protrusions there. Also the amber slag color is a common Challinor Taylor color. Post says it's a "rare color" for Sowerby. There are a couple other differences between the 2 but too hard to see in the photos. Other companies also made similar vases, but those are easier to see the differences. Wasn't sure if this was the correct place to bring this issue up, sorry if not.

Mod: adding links to the images referred to above for ease of reference
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-24531
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-24530
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-24529
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-24528
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-24527

[Paul S.]

Hi  -  welcome to the GMB               You may well be correct  -  assuming there is an error here, then the likely cause is that an assumption may have been made that the amber/yellow marbled example has been attributed to Sowerby, based on the fact that the shape matches the known Sowerby pattern 1225.             Whilst there are vast amounts of Sowerby Vitro-Porcelain in marbled colours such as green, blue, brown and New Marbled (which I think is another type of brown), finding reference sources to substantiate all marbled colours that the Company produced is difficult.                   Regret I know nothing of the circumstances surrounding the example shown on the Board's archive which as you say is attributed to Sowerby.

Not that it helps with the issue of this particular colour problem, see this link from Fred (Agincourt) which discusses the various factory pattern Nos. under which these straight cornered spill/posy type pieces lurk -  it seems that Sowerby didn't Register this particular small rectangular shape of Pattern 1225, and we know from experience that often they Registered a given design element on one particular shape, then subsequently used that design feature on other shapes/sizes, but choosing not to Register the new shape.        I think the Peacock trademark appeared after 1876  -  am sure Fred will correct me if I'm wrong.

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,58413.msg330965.html#msg330965

I know nothing of Challinor Taylor  -  are you able to give us details of the period during which C.T. may have produced this 'Sowerby shape', please.            Assume you are suggesting they used different moulds, or do I have that wrong?

Not a problem posting here  -  am sure the Mods. will move if they consider there is a better location.

[KevinH]

Hi Medford, welcome.

Thanks for raising this subject. Depending on how we might handle the logisitics of a correction or cautionary note, the general Glass forum is ok for this info for now.

You said: 

If you look inside (file 506/1477) you can see ...

I think you have quoted the wrong file number. File 506 relates to a sugar bowl, pattern no 1074. The range of images for pattern 1225 covers Files 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100. The Amber version is shown in image files 95 to 99.

If, as requested by Paul, you can provide further details about the US company that would be great.

[Medford]

Thanks for the replies. Here's a link to my favorite EAPG website with some Challinor Taylor info. A couple vases pictured here -
 http://www.eapgs.org/patterns/full-images.php?idx=29336&pat=3545

Info on more Challinor Taylor items here, notice the "Ring Handled Slag" near the bottom, which is another Sowerby looking design.
 http://www.eapgs.org/patterns/maker-details.php?idx=28

They are dating the vase at 1887, as that is when it is seen in a wholesale catalog. None of their glass was marked.
I'm also attaching a picture of another Challinor Taylor item in that amber slag color.

UK glass companies made my favorite slag glass, but Challinor Taylor was almost as good at it.

If you'd like pictures of the differences between the two I could take some photos.
 

[Paul S.]

Hi, and thanks for adding the links - seems Challinor Taylor had a shorter life than I'd expected.       

Your link showing the 'Ring Handled Slag' design does appear to be a straight lift from Sowerby Pattern No. 1264 from their Pattern Book IX (1882), and was Registered by Sowerby on 29th October 1877 under BoT Rd. 315666  -  they had a busy day apparently, and appear to have Registered something like eleven separate shapes/designs.
Assuming your assertion that this particular yellow/amber marbled/mosaic/slag colour correctly belongs to Challinor Taylor, and not Sowerby, it's intriguing to wonder quite why the former should have chosen only those very few Sowerby shapes to copy  -  perhaps they were the easiest to obtain examples of at the time.               We assume they would have purchased some examples of Sowerby glass and then made corresponding moulds.

As mentioned, I've no idea as to the thoughts behind the earlier provenance, on the GMB, that pattern 1225 in amber/yellow marble, was a 'rare colour for Sowerby'  -  it does seem remarkable that other Sowerby pieces in this particular marbled colour appear not to have surfaced.    I've no idea as to who might have added this 'rare colour' of the spill vase to the Board's Sowerby archive  -  perhaps Fred might have further information - but it would be interesting to know more as to the posting of this amber/yellow item as being from Sowerby.
                 
Without positive provenance/attribution that the spill in amber/yellow on the Board is from Sowerby, then it would seem that your original suggestion of Challinor Taylor is correct, and the Board's example should be treated with caution, and not included as a Sowerby example, without some verifiable provenance.

thanks for bringing this matter to everyone's attention.

[MHT]

I have always assumed that the square spill with the caramel marbeling was made by Challinor Taylor. I have never seen a piece of marked Sowerby in that colour.

Another Challinor Taylor item that is often seen is the No 6x. Oblong Mosaic Ash Tray or Match Safe on page: http://www.eapgs.org/patterns/maker-details.php?idx=28 which is very similar to Sowerby pattern number 1437.

Challinor Taylor also made a number of different items with their Tree of Life pattern (Google Challinor Taylor Tree of Life)
This pattern is a direct copy of Sowerby aesthetic oriental design on pattern 1407, even down to the copying of the ribbed and floral design found on the inside of the bowl.
Of course the Sowerby design is better 

Also from the page supplied by Medford, it shows that Challinor Taylor operated between 1884 and 1891. I believe that Sowerby had pretty much finished their production of coloured novelty items by 1884/5 and were concentrating their efforts on their more profitable domestic glass.

[Medford]

The article in this link mentions that there was a US mold-maker that produced molds for both Challinor Taylor and Sowerby. That might explain the similar items.
http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/slagglass.html

I also shot some pictures of the 2 vases. On the bottom shot notice the pattern on the Sowerby goes in, and on the other it protrudes. On the inside notice the protrusions in the corners near the bottom in one, and none in the other.

It's common even over here in the US for these all to be attributed to Sowerby (or Davidson) on ebay, but it seems clear Challinor Taylor made many of the US ones in both purple and amber slag. I have another version with a different bottom pattern, so may be a third maker as well.  There is also a Davidson version with ball feet that I've seen and hope to find someday.

[Anne]

Hi Medford, welcome.

Thanks for raising this subject. Depending on how we might handle the logisitics of a correction or cautionary note, the general Glass forum is ok for this info for now.

You said:  I think you have quoted the wrong file number. File 506 relates to a sugar bowl, pattern no 1074. The range of images for pattern 1225 covers Files 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100. The Amber version is shown in image files 95 to 99.

If, as requested by Paul, you can provide further details about the US company that would be great.

I've checked the Sowerby gallery and added links to the correct images to the OP #1 above.

Note to Medford, (hi and welcome to the board!) to link to an image in the GlassGallery you need to use the fixed link in the data box below the image, not the usual one in the address bar above it. The address bar link is dynamic and changes depending on how you are sorting the images in the album i.e. by filename, by date, by title, etc... so don't always show the same file to you as to someone else, and vice versa. 

[Medford]

Anne, thank you for the info and providing the links! I would have no doubt used the address bar and messed it up.

I'm attaching a photo of the unknown maker bottom in case anyone has seen a bottom like it. The rest of the vase is exactly like the Challinor Taylor vase.