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Author Topic: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection  (Read 4433 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2011, 12:38:47 PM »
I take your word for it that these comments are accurate Christine :)            In point of fact I did not refer to Wiki whatsoever when compiling my brief note, although I do understand that, as I commented, sand was exported from Lynn to many places in Britain over perhaps many centuries  -  so yes, as you say, proabably a busy trade centre.
I wonder who compiled the Wiki note? and if they were expert on the C17 and C18 glass industry ;D

I haven't had the remotest chance to look in detail at Peter's most recent offering, but what struck me at a quick glance was that the bowl shape looked like something I've seen before, and which from memory I thought was called a mead bowl.    I will look better tomorrow. :)         

In truth I never really know whether I should be commenting in this fashion  -  as I've said previously, I possess very few of these higher end glasses, and my information comes from books only  - and any idiot can quote from books or Wiki.             However, I guess that it is useful, possibly, to bring together a quantity of related data, and there may be some use in that.

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Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2011, 01:55:44 PM »
I'm still watching - just scared to say anything as all I can do is wibble!
Cheers, Sue M. (she/her)

Earth without art is just eh.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2011, 02:11:10 PM »
Perhaps watching a Scots lass wibble might be exciting.... ;)          However, might be good if someone else were also able to drop in a word or two apart from me.    I did have a thought that possibly the expression 'Lynn' might have been a little akin to the term 'Bristol Blue' - i.e. not necessarily made in Kings Lynn, but because the name stuck it was assumed they could come only from that place.     Probably not remotely true, but sounded good. :)   

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2011, 04:38:37 PM »
 The trouble with attaching any place to the production of a particular form of glass made in the 17th and 18thc centuries is wide spread,the problem being that many like opaque twists, air twists and many of the other popular designs were made all over the country , some say that opaque twists with bucket bowls may have been made in Bristol , why?? some bucket bowled opaque twists are found engraved with Privateer ships and captains names which operated out of bristol,but this is not 100% proof,glass was a countrywide huge business and new ideas re shapes forms etc when found to be popular with the buying public were soon adopted all over , in the early years of the balusters it it said that the finest glass probably came from the London glass houses ,London being at the forefront of innovation, but as with ceramics,pottery and furniture the ideas soon travelled to the provinces,there are some loud voices now expressing the opinion that 'Newcastle' Light balusters were NOT made in Newcastle but are all continental,I do agree that some light Balusters were made in other countries ,Holland being the main candidate,but I also believe they are stylistically different in subtle ways,and the Dutch dealers and scholars I know agree,this alone could develop into a very long discussion !!!!!

unfortunately unlike the 19thc and onwards pattern books(Greens pattern books for Venetian imports in the late 17thc being the exception) did not seem to be kept by drinking glass makers so very few of the huge variety of late 17th and 18th glass from the Golden Age of English glass making can be attributed with any certainty to a particular glass house,only when archaeological evidence is found on glass house sites is a tentative attribution possible ,the problem being there was a huge trade in Cullet,many many poorer families feeding themselves by collecting up all the broken glasses they could find and weighing them in at the local glass house for cash,lead cullet attracted a lower tax than the ingredients for new lead glass ,(or something like that) ,so a fragment of a particular stem form or bowl form found at a dig could have arrived there as cullet,the original object could have been made elsewere,in the 18thc there were many hundreds of glass houses all over the country,I remember reading that from tax records of 18thc glass houses,who were taxed by the weight of glass they sold, probably produced in excess of 10 million items in all kinds of glass in 1 year,for home and export ,so 100yrs  1680 to 1780 the Golden age ,thats a lot of glass.
Members of the Glass Association will soon be able to read in the next 'Cone', research done by Colin Brain on Johan Formica,and believes the evidence found for a glass with a particular stem form , my 'Dublin' glass ,is pretty sound ,mine being 1 of the only 2 whole examples known to date.

I know of several Lynn collectors who live in the area and to date nothing concrete has appeared so maybe old Albert knew something we never will.

Paul ,
I think you will find that serving and drinking mead by the 1/2 gallon was quite rare,the glasses you refer to I know well and have 1 here somewere , they too have encurved cup bowls ,many are plain though some are gadrooned with Baluster/Balustroid type stem ,around 5 to 5 1/2 ins tall they were for as long as I remember referred to as mead glasses then somebody thought they could have been for champagne so they became mead/champagnes, but now Dwight lanmon in his new book suggests as the form of bowl seems to match up nicely to continental wines of the same period that were known to have been used for white wine , meads are now white wine glasses , I am not convinced!!

and from 1 Scot to another I do enjoy a good wibble but prefer a wee tipple  lol .

Cheers ,
           Peter.

ps  photo of Mead/Champagne/white wine !!!!

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2011, 05:09:40 PM »
thanks very much for the in depth comments,Peter will digest later.............trouble is that after too many tipples you need to do lots of wibbles  -  or is that dribbles. ;)

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Offline Gabriel Tomkins

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2014, 08:07:58 PM »
Hi everyone !

Apologies for resurrecting a long-neglected thread, but I've been browsing your forum for info for some pieces I have been asked to write and - being a geographical pedant - was intrigued by the whole "Lynn glass" thing and the lack of any real provenance for items being manufactured there. Well, I've done a bit of digging and turned up the following from Glass-Making in England by H J Powell:



However, what I have found is - with just this one example of a local glasshouse being documented - that far and away the most common occurrences of Lynn in any glass-related context is as a source of high quality white sand as one of the constituent parts; it is mentioned on numerous occasions as being the finest available, better than the Alum Bay or Maidstone varieties which were deemed to be the next best. It even appears in French writing of 1824 as being of exceptionally high quality. Specific mention is made of the sand being send to glasshouses in Newcastle and Leith - I wonder if any of you are able to tie these sources in with being responsible for the so called Lynn glass pieces - does it match any known styles from either ?

It should be noted that in NONE of the pieces which I found detailing the use of Lynn sand were there any mentions of it being utilised at source in local glasshouses, so the name would appear to refer to glass made pretty much anywhere, but using Lynn sand (which in one instance is said to come from the specific location of Dersingham).

To reinforce the point, the marvellously entitled Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge; Vol 13-14 (1838) includes a lengthy piece about every aspect of Lynn, it's topography, industries and so on, which makes the specific point that one of the town's principal exports is the fine sand but which - again - makes no mention at all of a locally based manufacturing industry, which I cannot countenance being omitted had it actually existed.

There is one source which I would love to track down which would certainly shed some more light on this matter - an article by the inestimable L M Bickerton which appeared in Country Life in June 1969 entitled Glassmaking Traditions in King's Lynn, and which alludes to a far more local process than any other material which I have found.

However, I'm going to leave the last word to Nathaniel Whittock, author of The Decorative Painters' and Glaziers' Guide (I T Hinton 1828) who asserts, fairly unequivocally that:



...and until I track down Bickerton's article and find anything to the contrary, I think that - Jackson and Straw's 17th century efforts aside - we can pretty much dismiss the notion of any sort of meaningful glass manufacture on the banks of the Great Ouse.

Apologies for hijacking your board for such inconsequential wittering, but I found it fascinating !

 ;)

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2014, 09:51:12 PM »
Interesting stuff, thanks Gabriel

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2014, 10:34:18 PM »
Yes, thanks Gabriel, good to have an input from someone interested in such things :)

Always possible that the publishers of Country Life will have their own copy still  -  failing which the British Library may well have a copy, but..............
When the guys at Delomosne where compiling their article to accompany the sale of the Wilmot collection of Lynn glass in 1995, they said..........

""NOTE:  An article by L. M. Bickerton Glass Making Traditions in King's Lynn, Country Life, 12th June, 1969 has little to add to the material collected here, nor have Ivan Napiers' two papers written for the Circle of Glass Collectors (The Glass Circle), No. 29, August 1942 and No. 34, December 1942.       
The same has to be said for a further Glass Circle paper written by John Bacon in August 1942, (No. 29a) entitled A Note on Kings Lynn Glass"".

This Delomosne article also comments..........
""There remains no proof that glass continued to be made in Lynn within the date bracket set by the styles in which Lynn glass appears"".

The feeling seems to be that, as is not uncommon with historic attributions, earlier books have been responsible for keeping alive the suggestion that this particular horizontally ribbed style was a product of that part of Norfolk.

If you can get a copy of the Delomosne catalogue Gabriel, then the article on Lynn glass, plus comments on the sand from that part of the world makes for very interesting reading  -  even if we're no further forward on a definitive answer :)

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Offline flying free

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2014, 10:44:04 PM »
Thank you for adding this information :)
I was just about to add that the Corning Museum of Glass have a copy of the Country Life article I believe, however Paul has given more details in the post above so you may not now need the article.
m

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 09:05:57 AM »
sorry for being a bit of a kill-joy. ;)       The catalogue for the Wilmot collection really is a gem if you're into this kind of glass (and even if you're not)  -  and quite possibly is still available from Delomosne & Son (the auctioneers), in Chipenham, Wiltshire  -  despite the 1995 sale date.             Unfortunately, a lot of the pieces are now out of circulation (perhaps Peter has them all ;)), and in any event are expensive - with perhaps tumblers being the least costly.

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