Topic: Scalloped emerald green goblet I.d request

[Otis Orlando]

Any ideas on this little goblet. The rim is scalloped with 12 flats to the sides.  Height 12.7cm, Opening 6.2cm and base dia. 6.9cm @ longest points.  In other words the base is slightly oval in shape.  The stem too has slight imperfections and not symmetrical.  The base area is relatively flat, polished, however, the rim lip of the base is the only part that meets a flat surface, hence, clear signs of ware.  The pontil is approx. 2cm dia.  I have tried researching this goblet, but unable to obtain any clues as to the designer and period.  On first thoughts the polished base and pontil gave me clues as to who could of made it, but that soon went adrift after having one with similar base design and been told definitely not.   So I will leave this for you guys to work out as I'm at a loss with this one.

[Paul S.]

hello Otis  -  this generic Bristol green is variable, and always attractive, despite being the commonest of the colours.
I would have thought it unlikely that you'd ever find an attribution for such a piece, and regret I'm not going to be of much help either, but will just mention a couple of points which might possibly help.         
Georgian glasses have been copied at various times, so it might be thought that the first thing to do is evaluate age  -  is this lead glass, does it have all the right striations etc., and does the wear look like it's from the C18.
This is a two part drawn stem glass  -  the stem has been drawn from the bowl, with the foot made and attached separately, and the lack of symmetry would generally imply some age, which is confirmed by the foot diameter being larger than the rim.
I'm unsure if you're saying the base is ground/polish flat??   -   if so this might suggest Continental rather than British - the size of the pontil depression sounds about average  -  on these glasses they can vary from about 1.5cm. up to about 3cm.  -  and assume your 'flats' are moulded rather than slice cut? (if they were cut this would discount the C18) - I believe they are called 'panel moulding'.
I'd suggest your bowl shape is ovoid  -  but a deep one, and I had the feeling that deep ovoid bowls were not C18 - more Regency and later.
Scalloping on the rim is not unknown on C18 green glasses, but appears to be very rare  -  again this feature suggests a possible Continental origin.
Admire your optimism in suggesting a maker might be found  -  these things were produced very commonly in a variety of places (including Bristol).
Assuming this to be lead glass, then I'd suggest somewhere between 1780 and 1820, with perhaps a little more leeway on the earlier date, but hopefully Peter can improve on my rather wide dating - he will know better whether it's British or Continental.

[Otis Orlando]

Hi Paul,  Firstly I would like to thank you for helping me find answers to this Bristol Green Goblet.   The base rim dia. edge is the only part that meets with a flat surface and measures approx. 0.2cm in width, then from this point slightly curves inwards and then straightens out where it meet the outer edge of the pontil(concaved).  This area is not truely flat.   Under artificial or natural lighting a few ripples can be seen and felt around the main base area.  That is from the base rim to the outer pontil area.  The base and pontil area are all highly polished and I cannot see any marks to indicate what type of tool would have been used.  I hope this makes sense.  With regards to the stiation lines, I'm not sure what I should be looking for, however, the only lines I can actually see under magnification are horizontal slightly curved lines and at different lengths within the 'V' shaped areas of all facets(lower sections) and on the top of the base dia. stand closest to the stem(largest section), that has flats.  Could this be what you are referring to.   I can definately tell you that the glass does have lead content and when pinged there is a very high pitch sound.   The glass bowl also under light has that optical lens effect.   I've desperately tried looking for the striations lines which I think are lines from probable tools that would of been used during the process.   Due to the quality of the finished piece, I am not able to see these lines.  Sorry that I can't provide any other information than this, but hope there is sufficient info. for you to go on.  I've tried to explain this as well as I can and suppose this does'nt help, not being technical minded.
I have attached some more pictures during my observations, which show marked areas.  The two indented curved lines Start from the outer edge of the stand and then become even deeper as they reach to where they Finish.

[Paul S.]

As you suggest Otis, the striation lines are simply those marks which remain on the bowl and foot, and which are the result of the glassworker shaping the glass with his tools.           Generally, they are seen more on the upper half of the bowl, and are appear as irregular horizontal lines encircling the bowl, although with a moulded bowl shape they may well be less apparent.
We seem to be alone in discussing your glass - perhaps collectors of drinking glasses don't have the same interest in coloured examples as they have for clear/flint pieces - the same also seems to be true of most of the books.
As I've said, the panel moulding makes this a less than common green glass, so not easy to make comparisons, but in view of the irregular shaping and tool marks, I would suggest it has some age - alghough I might now revise my thoughts more towards the 1820 - 30 period. 

The feet of drinking glasses can often help with dating and method of manufacture, although as with everything there are exceptions to the rule, and there's no substitute for going to fairs and museums and looking at the real thing.
In the C19, the earliest of these is apparently the hand shaped foot, and this typically  a thicker foot which lacks roundness  -  with this style I believe the glass sits on the outermost edge of the foot rim.         
A blown foot would appear thinner and sharper at the edge where the curve of the top meets the flat of the underside.         
The moulded foot again has a chunky rounded edge, but here it shows more symmetry in the roundness, and the glass rests a little way in from the outer edge of the foot rim.

don't think I can add any more to this one  - you can always try Broadfield House or the V. & A. - I understand that both are very helpful -  however, I don't believe it would ever be possible to find a maker for such a glass.

Ref.  'The Big Book Of Vaseline Glass'  -  Barry Skelcher  -  2002  (information on methods of manufacture of drinking glass feet).           

 

[Otis Orlando]

Hi Paul, Whilst browsing I came across these that do bare similarities.  I thought they maybe of some interest.  The first refers to the colour as Bristol Green.   Is this correct?   Also the snapped off pontil on this one is rough, but I did notice similarities of markings (striation), which would agree with the period that was in question.  There is only 0.2cm difference at width of rim.   The second reference does show the scalloped rim.   Both do have a thick base.   I was hoping that there would be some mention of the maker in order to find some leads..............like you have said, it would be difficult.  Tbh green glass is not one of my favourite colours, but for some reason this one is very different and I do really like it.   There is currently one that has some similarities on the Ruby lane Website, but due to advice, I did not think it would be appropriate to mention it here due to the info. not always being correct. 


1.  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Early-19th-Century-Georgian-Bristol-Green-Wine-Glass-/310296885769#ht_3417wt_1024

2.  http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11749/lot/408/

I must thank you for devoting your time and contribution  and not excluding the references you have provided too. 

Thank you!!

[Paul S.]

hello Otis - thanks for the interesting links.
There's nothing wrong with the phrases 'Bristol green, or Bristol blue', they are correct descriptions -  insofar as they have slipped into common parlance and I'm sure we all know, generally, what is being discussed  -  I suspect if you said 'Warrington Green' or Sunderland blue' people would fall about in mirth and be utterly confused.       However, as I said earlier, these descriptions are generalized statements, and it must be understood that whilst green and blue glass was made at Bristol, the phrase now refers to the colour and not the origin.           In the C18 and C19 Bristol was dynamic entry port for the U.K., and certainly the mineral smalt used by the glass houses in that area come in via this port, and gave us the Bristol blue colour that is probably more famous than the green.                     I don't know, but am assuming that green was derived from either iron oxide or chromium, and perhaps this also was imported via Bristol, and so it was assumed that all coloured glass was therefore made at Bristol.         It's probable that only a fraction of the quantity made actually derived from that area - but some of those few do come with a famous provenance (the decorator Edkins and Jacobs the maker for example). 
Bristol green seems to come in a greater range of shades than any of the other colours, and this is borne out by comments in the books regarding the difficulty of matching individual glasses when pieces are sourced from different batches.       
I have much respect for Chris Elwell's attributions, and am sure he has this right.
Although these 'Bristol' colours do go back to the first quarter of the C18, I suspect that most of the pieces we see are post c.1800 (mostly the Regency period) - the genuinely early ones are very rare.

Not so sure about the Bonhams wording - is there some error with the description - could be wrong but I'm unsure that any of those are true flutes - they seem expensive, but you do get chips with them .             The central glass (Low Countries) has the cup bowl (in the U.K. often described as a mead glass) - so looks as though they are saying the two outside pieces are British?

On most wine and ale glasses the snapped pontil seems to have gone by about 1760 - 70, and thereafter we get flatter feet and ground pontil depressions - the exception being with some pub and tavern rummers and later with inexpensive moulded glasses where the scar is left untreated   -   BUT, for some reason I'm not aware of, the snapped pontil scar re-appears somewhere around the Regency period.    This might be an indication of higher quality glasses, but that's just my opinion.   I have a couple (out of about ten) with scars. 

I've a feeling that I've read somewhere that if the glass is thicker, then this is an indication of period production  -  as modern pieces are thinner.
You'll never get attribution on these pieces, it really is a non-starter I'm sorry to say  -  if you can't live without a maker's name, I'd suggest you stick to C20 Studio glass    -    but a varied collection of these 'Bristol' colours - green, blue, amethyst and ruby can make an attractive display, and a lot of history comes with them.              Think you'd like the blue pieces, and generally these coloured pieces are good value for money, and maybe less likely to fluctuate in value than, perhaps, some of the more fashionable areas of glass collecting.
Try reading some of the books that cover drinking glasses  -  you might get hooked.
Anyway, your glass is a good piece, and my personal opinion is that it's probably quite a scarce design and well worth having.

Sorry, I only know Ruby Murray, not Ruby Lane   -  but perhaps you're wise to be cautious.

[Otis Orlando]

Taking into consideration the date of my piece (1820's) and the depth of colour.   I think chromium as appose to iron oxide agent would of been used.  I have read that Iron Oxide when added, gives a bluish tint to glass.  It's the controlled use of this substance that will determine the final colour.  Please correct me if I am wrong.   In those days it was a matter of trial and error, hence, probably the variations in colour.  In other words there was no consistency on final products and the colour of mine, if iron oxide was used, would  just have been down to pot luck. .  Tbh, there is some uncertainty  as to whether iron oxide was used in the making of this goblet, also I only know that there was controversy around the compositions used when making blue glass(cobalt) and the composite contravened the laws around health and safety, mainly around the working environment/workplace.     I'm not sure when Chromium was first introduced and could of possibly be too around the same period, but aware that it is a powerful agent and was and still is being used to make dark green glass.  Excessive amounts will of course turn the glass black.   I will have to look this up at some point.  I think it would be interesting for me to know. 
I am just pleased to know that I have purchased something of some quality and age.   I don't purchase as much glass as I used to.   I think that is mainly down to experience and now having a good eye  .   I got very addicted at one stage and just brought anything that looked unusual.   I found myself inundated with glass and some unfortunately got damaged on the way.    Now I limit the amount to only one or two a week.   Like I said, green glass is not my favourite colour, but for some reason this one was on display tucked away and had something about it.   Value has never been my main concern and You would probably hate to think what I payed for it.   I do not have the expertise on glass, but enjoy researching items purchased.    I very much value this site, as a lot of information can be obtained even if it is just one person attributing to posts.   A lead is better than none, so thanks to you. 

[Paul S.]

quote.............."I found myself inundated with glass".............       I think most of us have been there

Hope you won't object to my adding some pix to illustrate the comment that this green is a most variable colour, becoming quite bluish at times  -  these pieces span the greater part of the C19 - the finger bowls show how this variation affected pieces other than drinking glasses.

Would seem that the element chromium was discovered in the closing years of the C18, and its use in glass commenced in the early years of the C19, so it could have been available commercially for Regency glasses.        Prior to chromium, the dark green colour of bottle glass was created by using iron oxide.         Having read the books again, and looking at the blue shade in the second pic, it does look possibly as though these pieces may well have had something to do with copper, which is certainly known to induce a blue shading rather than a straight green  -  algthough having said that, apparently green signal lenses were produced using copper.              I guess it's all down to whatever proportions of these metallic oxides are present in the batch etc.

The important point to remember when buying these 'green' glasses, is to try and avoid ending up with a much later C20 example  by mistake.

Ref.  'The Encyclopedia of Glass'  -  Edited by Phoebe Phillips  -  1981 (this has a quite useful chapter on 'The Chemistry of Colour'.

[Otis Orlando]

Hi Paul,

The important point to remember when buying these 'green' glasses, is to try and avoid ending up with a much later C20 example  by mistake.

Ref.  'The Encyclopedia of Glass'  -  Edited by Phoebe Phillips  -  1981 (this has a quite useful chapter on 'The Chemistry of Colour'.

Definitely will take caution when buying green glass of the latter part of the C20.   The xtra pictures you have included are very helpful.

I have read the reviews and will purchase this asap.   Can you confirm this as being:  ISBN 10: 0424982008.   

I've managed to find a few sites, but with quite a large variance in price , but will hopefully get this before the weekend.

It took me a while, even though I am unable to find my other notes on this subject matter, however, here is one of the sites, whereupon some of my previous info. was gathered.  You may have already been aware of this site, but thought it would be still useful to other GMB members.   I'm sure it is a well trusted site for info.

http://1st-glass.1st-things.com/articles/glasscolouring.html

Thank a lot for your help.

[Lustrousstone]

The basic site is Ok but that particular writer (not the site owner) is known for shall we say "recycling" other people's words so we don't tend to quote him as a reference source