Topic: Two unidentified Mr Punch figures in pressed glass

[agincourt17]

Firstly, a clear pressed glass lid (presumably for a butter dish or sugar bowl) with a seated figure of Mr Punch as the handle. No identifying markings. The lid is octagonal, 5½ inches wide across the flats, and stands approx.3 inches in height. The Mr Punch handle appears to be reasonably well detailed, and he is seated on a box with horizontally-ridged sides.

(Permission for the re-use of the image on the GMB granted by Robert Falconbridge).

Secondly, a seated glass figure of Mr Punch in very dark amethyst glass (appearing black at first sight). It is approx. 4¼ inches high and 3¾  inches across the base. Mr Punch’s jacket is covered in small cross shapes (made up of dots) and the trousers have a raised stripe. His seat is clearly but crudely modelled. The vertical sides of the base are decorated with closely-packed raised ovals. No identifying markings.

(Permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by straysider).

Both of the Mr Punch figures had been tentatively identified by their owners as by John Derbyshire (possibly because JD’s glass Punch & Judy figures were the only examples they knew of); see the examples on Neil Harris’s site at:
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshires-unregistered-pressed-glass
but Neil tells me that he is as certain as he can be that neither figure is by John Derbyshire.

IDs, comments or suggestions, please?

Does anyone have matching Judy figures to show, or, in fact any other pressed glass Punch or Judy figures for comparison?

[flying free]

I think Punch and Judy were big in America as well so could these be from American manufacture maybe?
m

[Sid]

I will let an American answer for their country but from a Canadian's point of view Punch & Judy are an English phenomena. 

Sid

[Ohio]

I agree with Sid. Punch & Judy did make appearances in colonial times at the end of the 18th century when we where a colony but were not favorable because of our continuing difficulties with the British from 1775 to 1783 & then 1812-1815. They probably did make appearances in the Victorian era & after in the U.S. since they were pretty much global by that time, but "big"...not to my knowledge although they probably did influence puppet sideshows, but again that was pretty much global. 

[Paul S.]

quote...................."because of our continuing difficulties with the British from 1775 to 1783 & then 1812-1815."..........    well it wasn't our fault, you wouldn't pay for the bothery tea

The Derbyshire models of he and his wife were about mid 1870's I believe, and this period for British Board of Trade registrations for CLASS 3 is covered by four Representations books (the pix) at The National Archives    -    these are references BT 43/60, 61, 62 and 63, and extend from 1842 until 1884 (the entire duration of the lozenge period I think).          The corresponding Register (the written data) is simply one book, reference BT 44/7.

I'm suggesting these earlier registers are worth looking at simply because this period includes the Derbyshire examples, and it may be that there was a flurry of interest in these characters at that time, and it's possible that this unknown one might be of a similar age.   
I'm not saying this one will be found, but it's worth a look.

These volumes could be examined within the course of one day, and there is a very useful cafe/restaurant.

After 1884, CLASS 3 is covered by multiple books, and it probably takes longer to search.

I won't be at Kew for some few weeks now, but if in the meantime someone else would like to enlist and obtain a reader's ticket.........

[flying free]

http://viewitem.eim.ebay.pt/ANTIQUE-JOHN-DERBYSHIRE--PRESSED-GLASS--MR-PUNCH-PAPERWEIGHT--DAMAGED/121108782634/item/index.en-US.html
this one has been broken off it's base and the chair doesn't look the same but Mr Punch in clear satin glass on this version, has remarkable similarities with the amethyst version.

Sid and Ken, thanks for clarifying that:)  It was just that I came across a book about Mr Punch in 19th century America and it seemed he was pretty popular there from that.
m

[agincourt17]

Now a clear example of the Mr Punch figurine as shown in the second photo of my opening post. 

(Permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by supermantronix).

Still no nearer a positive attribution though.

[Paul S.]

I've just been through my Kew pix for the 1870's, but not aware of seeing Mr. Punch anywhere.        Bit of a mystery really as to why he and his spouse should not have been registered in full with a Board of Trade No.          Most of the other 'characters' seem to have been given a Rd. No. ......sphinx, Britannia. greyhounds, lions etc., but I'd agree the base of these two are certainly unlike the plinth for Derbyshire.

[Anne]

Bernard's earlier topic about these figures is worth reading:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21266.0.html

[Paul S.]

Bernard's speculation as to the absence of full Registration for Mr. & Mrs. Punch may well be correct, although I'm not so sure I follow the logic of the argument.                   
It's hard to imagine someone coming forward and claiming copyright over a puppet figure that appears to have its origins in C16 Italian folklore, so that particular reasoning is not immediately obvious, especially as these images were in the public domain everywhere.            Mr. & Mrs. P. must have been public property in every seaside town on several continents, so who was it that might be going to sue JD if they had Registered them?           Pupeteers who made the wooden figures presumably didn't need a licence to make the figures.
On the other hand, Britannia was on coinage, and might have presented a problem, and who's to know that decendents of Landseer might not have sued for theft of image.
I doubt that we'll ever know the truth, but it gives food for thought.