Topic: Info on Mdina Ornament - Axe head?

[David555]

Strange bidding - two bids by one user name taking it up to £600.00 - can't see bidders buying habbits as last sale was too long ago.

Mmmm something fishy I think (sorry for pun)

Adam P

[David E]

Adam: if you decide to increase your initial bid it does appear like that - effectively placing two bids. I don't think this is 'fishy'.

However, please note the comment now on the listing:

... there are a few very arrogant glass dealers who believe it to be the signature of Joseph Said.

Well, I'm no dealer, or even an avid Mdina collector (wallet, not choice! :lol: ), but even I know that Michael Harris left Mdina in 1972 due to the political situation caused by the Dom Mintoff government of the time.

It simply does not add up but, like Mark, I'm uneasy about interfering with a live auction. But I also believe that in Mark and Sue we have two very knowledgeable Mdina-philes :roll:

[David555]

True David

I am not accusing anyone of anything up front but shill bidding has been known.

In such cases the dealer has a spare account and uses it to pump the price up.

I feel suspicious that the first bidder has put a bid of say over £600.00 in and then shown his cards so early - I mean 3 days still to go!

How many people would place a huge bid against his own 16 seconds after his first bid rather than watch other bidders come in and compete against what is really an unbeatable first bid for this now contentious item.

I also find the bids very interesting along with the timing of the dealer’s protests.

I will be interested to see if the bids are retracted 12 hours before the action ends.

I mean has a anyone been able to contact the bidder and say this is a lot of dosh for a piece with a disputed signature and date? - I have and no response.

These are just observations based on what we have seen on eBay before.

Adam P

[Frank]

How many people would place a huge bid against his own 16 seconds after his first bid rather than watch other bidders come in and compete against what is really an unbeatable first bid for this now contentious item.

At least one other if the first bid did not hit reserve.

[David E]

I am not accusing anyone of anything up front but shill bidding has been known.

In such cases the dealer has a spare account and uses it to pump the price up.

Sure, but did you realise the bidder is in the US?

How many people would place a huge bid against his own 16 seconds after his first bid rather than watch other bidders come in

Admittedly I've never done it that quickly, but I have increased my own proxy bid after reassessing the item. It's rare I do this anyway as I normally snipe :twisted:

But who can tell what people are thinking when they see such a desirable item, albeit with a dubious attribution?

I've now sent the seller the following very conciliatory and diplomatic response.

Hi,

As you may be aware, this item is currently being discussed on a glass forum. My own view is that as Michael Harris left Malta in 1972, during the Dom Mintoff crisis (Maltese Prime Minister at the time) it really is contentious to attribute it to Michael Harris. Particularly as his widow, Elizabeth (at Isle of Wight Studio Glass), will confirm this, as well as any acknowledged Mdina expert (which I don't claim to be).

I'm sure this is a genuine error by Navise and, as you state, 'We are NOT trying to con or inflate the price of this piece by falcifying facts about signatures' - I appreciate this and after such a long time it is understandable how errors can be made.

But as this is the case, perhaps it would be best not to claim outright that it is _definitely_ Michael Harris, when the weight of evidence says otherwise?

I hope you accept this advice in the spirit it was intended. Please feel free to reply.

I'll let you know if I get a reply.

[David E]

And here's the reply...

Thaks for your message. We have obnly claimed what the makers of the vase have told us.

(sic)
So no nearer to obtaining a resolution! :?

Trouble is, "the makers" are no longer around to support this, so that's inaccurate as well...

[chopin-liszt]

:D:D

I've been away for a while, and may not be about much in the forseeable near future, so apologies for lack of input at the moment.

BUT:- I see this sold, at the £600.

I see the seller claims that the signature was compared with known Joseph Said signatures, and does not match. :evil:  

It is EXACTLY the same as the 8 known-to-be Joseph Said signatures I have. :twisted:

It is nothing like the signature I suspect to be Paul Said. :twisted:

It is NOTHING like any signature, or handwriting of Michael Harris that I have seen. I do have several examples. :twisted:    

I would just like to add to this discussion that I am ALWAYS ready to be corrected on ANYTHING. In any field of research, using the proper scientific definitions of research, information published is only ever "to the best possible current state of knowledge available".

I also know Mark Hill has exactly this attitude. This is one of the reasons I'm so excited about his book, and why I have so much confidence in him as a researcher, as a source of information and as a kindred spirit in loving the glass and wanting it to take it's proper place in Art History.

The sort of misinformation that is going on here is an anathema to us. :cry:

[David555]

I agree with all you have said Sue.

I also think it is a little strange - the auction being without reserve and one bidder basically bidding against themselves (in desperation to get the item :?: ) with such a huge second bid - why not £200.00 and then increase, while others came in.

I have watched other signed Fish vases sell at around that mark with less contention surrounding them.

Hopefully the bidder will have a look at our discussion here, I have seen vases with a proper Harris signature go for a lot less than £600.00 - the 2006 J Miller has one dated 1970 and signed by Harris £300 - £500.

link                          

Adam P


 :!:  :shock:  :!:  :?  :|

[Frank]

I just got a mail from the seller accusing me of contacting the bidder! Cheek. Presumably they have realised the sig is wrong. Anyway I told them I had not.

[David E]

Ha, me too! :roll:

I'm wondering if the seller renaged?

EDIT: "reneged"  :roll: